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Zelensky just proved once again what real leadership looks like. He went to the White House knowing that they will try to do exactly that and yet he did it wit

Zelensky just proved once again what real leadership looks like. He went to the White House knowing that they will try to do exactly that and yet he did it with his head held high and did not sign the deal. Amazing guy. This is also a historic day for the world. US dominance over the West is over. As a European, I will vote against any politician that keeps talking about EU-US special partnership and doesn't put 'EU First'. The special partnership is over, we are still doing business together but it's clear as a day that it's only business from now on.

fooker 2y ago
You’re not wrong, but there’s a reason US was in this position for this long. There’s no ‘EU first’, every European country has constantly tried to one up their rivals for the last several centuries.
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  On the other hand, EU is a very recent experiment, given the length of European history. In that sense, European countries were never as close as they are right now. I expect it to strengthen as time passes, especially now that the US should be seen as an hostile foreign nation to every European country. Not to mention that after the shitshow that Brexit proved to be, even right-wing parties in Europe sort of abandoned their "leave EU" rhetoric.
  - manmal 2y ago
    We’d need a common language in order to get as close as US states are to each other. English does work, but it’s not quite the same.
    - surgical_fire 2y ago
      Eh, English does the job. I don't think a common language is as necessary as you are making it out to be. India uses English as lingua franca because it has dozens on languages, and it is a more or less cohesive country.
      - manmal 2y ago
        That’s a good point, maybe I can be a bit more optimistic henceforth.
  - ApolloFortyNine 2y ago
    I don't think the US looked great here at all from this chat, but Ukraine isn't an EU member and isn't a NATO member. France and UK signed the same 'security assurances' pact the US did, they don't have troops deployed either. The way people keep on bringing up NATO in this comment section makes no sense. Hell for the first year or two after the invasion it wasn't even clear if Germany would support Ukraine, they refused to send serious arms for ages. And the US would love for the EU to defend itself. It's a large part why the U.S helped rebuild after WWII, and why the US has been begging NATO members to contribute the 2% GDP they promised for years. A strong EU is spelled out in U.S foreign policy.
    - surgical_fire 2y ago
      > And the US would love for the EU to defend itself. Then the US shouldn't have over decades worked to undermine EU defense industry. I trust actions more than words. The US over the decades did all it could so that EU did not, in fact, stepped up its defence, mainly for its own damn interests. A Europe that depends on the US to shoulder part of its defense is a Europe a lot more susceptible to US interests. I am actually glad this should be coming to an end. I always thought EU should get rid of US influence.
romanhn 2y ago
Yeah, from my perspective this was just a dog and pony show. Trump and Vance got to look big and strong (their perception anyways) next to Zelensky, and he got to look like he's willing to continue the conversation. Doubt anyone actually expected progress out of this.
ajross 2y ago
> As a European, I will vote against any politician that keeps talking about EU-US special partnership and doesn't put 'EU First'. Isn't that exactly the logic behind Trumpism though? "Our partners suck, we need to put our own interests first" is how you get isolation and trade wars. And sometimes real wars. I mean, maybe that's where things are going. But "as a European" you should at least recognize that's the policy you're arguing for.
- spinlock_ 2y ago
  Imho still better than relying on a bully.
- TheAlchemist 2y ago
  bad choice of words from me indeed. What I wanted to say is that a lot of people, especially in the Eastern Europe look at the US as a rock solid partner - even more solid than EU. That dates back to WWII. Its time to change that perception.
- anigbrowl 2y ago
  Don't fall for this argument, it just keeps ratcheting things in the bully's favor. Game theory offers abundant demonstrations of the fact that cooperation is the best default, but cooperation with a serial defector is a losing strategy. At some point they need to experience suffering in response to aggression.
IncreasePosts 2y ago
Was what happened today in the White House the best outcome for Ukraine? It is hard to see how that is the case.
- dygd 2y ago
  Clearly not the best possible outcome. But what happened today cleared up any notion of the current US administration being an "ally". Seems like a defining moment and Europe will have to do a whole lot of think on how to move forward.
- torlok 2y ago
  "Best outcome", no. "Best possible outcome", probably.
- attentive 2y ago
  the correct question should be "was this avoidable"? - It doesn't look like it was with all the bad actors that arranged this spectacle.
whilenot-dev 2y ago
> This is also a historic day for the world. US dominance over the West is over. Seeing the US part ways with "western allies" firsthand - a true paradigm shift, and one I'm not looking forward to.

fooker 2y ago

You’re not wrong, but there’s a reason US was in this position for this long. There’s no ‘EU first’, every European country has constantly tried to one up their rivals for the last several centuries.

surgical_fire 2y ago
On the other hand, EU is a very recent experiment, given the length of European history. In that sense, European countries were never as close as they are right now. I expect it to strengthen as time passes, especially now that the US should be seen as an hostile foreign nation to every European country. Not to mention that after the shitshow that Brexit proved to be, even right-wing parties in Europe sort of abandoned their "leave EU" rhetoric.
- manmal 2y ago
  We’d need a common language in order to get as close as US states are to each other. English does work, but it’s not quite the same.
  - surgical_fire 2y ago
    Eh, English does the job. I don't think a common language is as necessary as you are making it out to be. India uses English as lingua franca because it has dozens on languages, and it is a more or less cohesive country.
    - manmal 2y ago
      That’s a good point, maybe I can be a bit more optimistic henceforth.
- ApolloFortyNine 2y ago
  I don't think the US looked great here at all from this chat, but Ukraine isn't an EU member and isn't a NATO member. France and UK signed the same 'security assurances' pact the US did, they don't have troops deployed either. The way people keep on bringing up NATO in this comment section makes no sense. Hell for the first year or two after the invasion it wasn't even clear if Germany would support Ukraine, they refused to send serious arms for ages. And the US would love for the EU to defend itself. It's a large part why the U.S helped rebuild after WWII, and why the US has been begging NATO members to contribute the 2% GDP they promised for years. A strong EU is spelled out in U.S foreign policy.
  - surgical_fire 2y ago
    > And the US would love for the EU to defend itself. Then the US shouldn't have over decades worked to undermine EU defense industry. I trust actions more than words. The US over the decades did all it could so that EU did not, in fact, stepped up its defence, mainly for its own damn interests. A Europe that depends on the US to shoulder part of its defense is a Europe a lot more susceptible to US interests. I am actually glad this should be coming to an end. I always thought EU should get rid of US influence.

romanhn 2y ago

Yeah, from my perspective this was just a dog and pony show. Trump and Vance got to look big and strong (their perception anyways) next to Zelensky, and he got to look like he's willing to continue the conversation. Doubt anyone actually expected progress out of this.

ajross 2y ago

> As a European, I will vote against any politician that keeps talking about EU-US special partnership and doesn't put 'EU First'. Isn't that exactly the logic behind Trumpism though? "Our partners suck, we need to put our own interests first" is how you get isolation and trade wars. And sometimes real wars. I mean, maybe that's where things are going. But "as a European" you should at least recognize that's the policy you're arguing for.

spinlock_ 2y ago
Imho still better than relying on a bully.
TheAlchemist 2y ago
bad choice of words from me indeed. What I wanted to say is that a lot of people, especially in the Eastern Europe look at the US as a rock solid partner - even more solid than EU. That dates back to WWII. Its time to change that perception.
anigbrowl 2y ago
Don't fall for this argument, it just keeps ratcheting things in the bully's favor. Game theory offers abundant demonstrations of the fact that cooperation is the best default, but cooperation with a serial defector is a losing strategy. At some point they need to experience suffering in response to aggression.

IncreasePosts 2y ago

Was what happened today in the White House the best outcome for Ukraine? It is hard to see how that is the case.

dygd 2y ago
Clearly not the best possible outcome. But what happened today cleared up any notion of the current US administration being an "ally". Seems like a defining moment and Europe will have to do a whole lot of think on how to move forward.
torlok 2y ago
"Best outcome", no. "Best possible outcome", probably.
attentive 2y ago
the correct question should be "was this avoidable"? - It doesn't look like it was with all the bad actors that arranged this spectacle.

whilenot-dev 2y ago

> This is also a historic day for the world. US dominance over the West is over. Seeing the US part ways with "western allies" firsthand - a true paradigm shift, and one I'm not looking forward to.