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This is basic Mediterranean basin wisdom, known for a very long time: “I am a jealous God punishing the sins of the parents to the third and fourth generation.”

This is basic Mediterranean basin wisdom, known for a very long time: “I am a jealous God punishing the sins of the parents to the third and fourth generation.” One of the two mentions also says blessings are passed down 1000 generations, both of which seem pretty in line with modern evolutionary and epigenetic theory.

A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y ago
It does, doesn't it. The undesirable traits are weeded out and the desirable traits remain in the pool.
uludag 2y ago
These seem to be rather different things though. I'm pretty sure this biblical passage is referring to a metaphysical concept, involving morality. Plus this article is a study about being on the receiving end of violence, not being the perpetrator of.
- cess11 2y ago
  Bronze age morality was rather different than what most readers here will have in mind when seeing you use that word.
  - janalsncm 2y ago
    The problem I have (besides the fact that its guidances are often quite different from contemporary norms) is that it doesn’t capture the complexity of what I would consider to be interesting ethical questions. For example, is it ethical to create a company which automates the job of a large class of workers? Is it ethical to use such a product? I don’t even think the Golden Rule can account for it, frankly, because the “others” in “do unto others” can be multiple parties, some of whom are helped and some who are harmed.
    - cess11 2y ago
      Sure, if the workers get to control the means of production.
ajuc 2y ago
Exodus 20:5, “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations o those who hate Me,” It's repeated in like dozen different places that you punish people for their parents sins to a few generations down. On the other hand Ezekiel 18:20, “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.” And then there's the original sin - which is punished for infinite number of generations. Bible is using the oldest trick in the world - holding every position at the same time :) That way no matter what happens you can find a quote which supports it (also contradicts, but you don't share these).
- archibaldJ 2y ago
  I think the interesting thing here though is the notion of `am a jealous God`. Note: Exodus 20:5 and Similar Passages: The concept of "visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation" is often understood in the context of the collective nature of ancient Israelite society. It emphasizes the idea that the consequences of sin can affect subsequent generations, particularly in a communal and covenantal context. This does not necessarily mean direct punishment, but rather the natural repercussions and influence of one generation's behavior on the next. So one interpretation is that: these people's descendants are not directly punished bust just less favorable by God given the jealous nature of God (i.e. the jealous nature to the degree that is expressed in Exodus 20:5 if we take Exodus 20:5 at face value as composed by Moses at the cultural-political time when he received the Commandments where God proclaimed that He is a jealous God) On the other hand, regarding Ezekiel 18:20, it is a verse that is a part of a broader discussion in Ezekiel 18 that emphasizes individual responsibility when it was composed by the prophet Ezekiel ~6th century BCE, during the Babylonian exile. So once again, one good interpretation can be that due to the cultural-political background at that time, God's message to humanity (for the betterment of humanity) was in a tone where He emphasized less on His jealous aspect and more on the individualism of sins - which is interestingly very similar to the idea of karma formulated in Shakyamuni's Dharma, which was also around that time in human history.
oh_sigh 2y ago
Sheesh, good thing G-d decided to take a chill pill somewhere between the Old and New Testaments.

A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y ago

It does, doesn't it. The undesirable traits are weeded out and the desirable traits remain in the pool.

uludag 2y ago

These seem to be rather different things though. I'm pretty sure this biblical passage is referring to a metaphysical concept, involving morality. Plus this article is a study about being on the receiving end of violence, not being the perpetrator of.

cess11 2y ago
Bronze age morality was rather different than what most readers here will have in mind when seeing you use that word.
- janalsncm 2y ago
  The problem I have (besides the fact that its guidances are often quite different from contemporary norms) is that it doesn’t capture the complexity of what I would consider to be interesting ethical questions. For example, is it ethical to create a company which automates the job of a large class of workers? Is it ethical to use such a product? I don’t even think the Golden Rule can account for it, frankly, because the “others” in “do unto others” can be multiple parties, some of whom are helped and some who are harmed.
  - cess11 2y ago
    Sure, if the workers get to control the means of production.

ajuc 2y ago

Exodus 20:5, “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations o those who hate Me,” It's repeated in like dozen different places that you punish people for their parents sins to a few generations down. On the other hand Ezekiel 18:20, “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.” And then there's the original sin - which is punished for infinite number of generations. Bible is using the oldest trick in the world - holding every position at the same time :) That way no matter what happens you can find a quote which supports it (also contradicts, but you don't share these).

archibaldJ 2y ago
I think the interesting thing here though is the notion of `am a jealous God`. Note: Exodus 20:5 and Similar Passages: The concept of "visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation" is often understood in the context of the collective nature of ancient Israelite society. It emphasizes the idea that the consequences of sin can affect subsequent generations, particularly in a communal and covenantal context. This does not necessarily mean direct punishment, but rather the natural repercussions and influence of one generation's behavior on the next. So one interpretation is that: these people's descendants are not directly punished bust just less favorable by God given the jealous nature of God (i.e. the jealous nature to the degree that is expressed in Exodus 20:5 if we take Exodus 20:5 at face value as composed by Moses at the cultural-political time when he received the Commandments where God proclaimed that He is a jealous God) On the other hand, regarding Ezekiel 18:20, it is a verse that is a part of a broader discussion in Ezekiel 18 that emphasizes individual responsibility when it was composed by the prophet Ezekiel ~6th century BCE, during the Babylonian exile. So once again, one good interpretation can be that due to the cultural-political background at that time, God's message to humanity (for the betterment of humanity) was in a tone where He emphasized less on His jealous aspect and more on the individualism of sins - which is interestingly very similar to the idea of karma formulated in Shakyamuni's Dharma, which was also around that time in human history.

oh_sigh 2y ago

Sheesh, good thing G-d decided to take a chill pill somewhere between the Old and New Testaments.