5 ms·

Perovskite solar cells could be and dye sensitized solar cells can be[0]. The better question is why should one make solar cells at home? [0]https://www.instru

by gene-h 2y ago

Perovskite solar cells could be and dye sensitized solar cells can be[0]. The better question is why should one make solar cells at home? [0]https://www.instructables.com/How-to-Build-Use-A-Dye-Sensitized-Solar-Cell-DS/ https://www.instructables.com/How-to-Build-Use-A-Dye-Sensiti...

AtlasBarfed 2y ago
Solar panels enabling offgrid power is tagcloud-related to surviving human civilization collapse. We're entering an era of decreased globalism, where megacorporation scale actually becomes a danger to society due to reduced warehousing/stockpiling and long extended supply lines, and of course offshored manufacturing that goes with that.
- margalabargala 2y ago
  Before solar panels become impossible to purchase, they will be difficult to purchase. Before solar panels become difficult to purchase, they will become more expensive to purchase. Mass produced solar panels have been getting both cheaper and easier to get. What you describe could happen, but it's far enough off that we have not seen even the first warning signs yet.
  - lukan 2y ago
    "What you describe could happen, but it's far enough off that we have not seen even the first warning signs yet." Well, some disagree on there being no warning signs. https://thebulletin.org/doomsday-clock/2025-statement/ https://thebulletin.org/doomsday-clock/2025-statement/
    - kragen 2y ago
      Yeah, if some shithead nukes China, solar panels would get expensive in a hurry.
    - margalabargala 2y ago
      Okay, sure, but that's no different than the same identical "warning signs" that people have been flipping out about since the 1960s. Maybe some individual country will have some collapse, but all of human civilization will not. I.maintain that if you're worried about any of that, you are still better off stockpiling panels now, than developing ways to make your own much worse ones in your backyard. DIY photovoltaics can be a fun hobby but for someone worried about an actual collapse they can acquire a lifetime supply of solar panels and batteries for less money and time than setting up a custom fab that's able to operate in a collapse situation.
      - lukan 2y ago
        Is your argument because we have not had a nuclear war yet, we will never have one? Can you elaborate? I would like to have your confidence .. And in general setting up a solar panel fab is maybe not the best prepper action, but for the point of distributing critical techologies for a potential reconstruction, I do see the point. There is individual survival and general progress of the species.
        margalabargala 2y ago
        There's exactly one scenario that results in the actual technological collapse of our species, which is all out nuclear war between the US and Russia. Which with the current presidential administration, is possibly less likely than it's ever been; why would Russia nuke its newest ally? The chances of a nuclear weapon being used somewhere right now tactically I think are quite high. Russia in Ukraine, or Israel in Iran (or someday soon Iran in Israel), or between India and Pakistan. But none of those are sufficient to bring us to a point where home manufacturing of solar panels becomes remotely worthwhile.
        lukan 2y ago
        The problem is, except for the very first ones in Japan, there were never any nuclear weapons being used in a major war exactly for the unknown consequences of the other players. It is all interconnected. If one nuke is used, then there will be many on the other side applying pressure to also use a nuke. And so on. I assume much more countries secretly have nukes and the frontlines are somewhat blurry. Meaning, at the moment I am also not too worried, but if a nuke is used it will be a very high gamble, that it will be just the only one.
kilpikaarna 2y ago
hacker spirit and/or hedge against the end of the industrial age Personally, I don't have much faith in sustaining a modern industrial lifestyle for billions of people very long term on PV panels or any renewables really (EROEI issues, rare earth minerals etc.). But I'm bullish on electricity in general.
- kragen 2y ago
  By far the most common PV systems are single-junction monocrystalline silicon. These have had pretty decent ERoEI for many years (9–10 according to https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy17osti/67901.pdf https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy17osti/67901.pdf, but the energy required for PV modules has dropped precipitously since then) and don't use any rare-earth minerals. Wind turbines have typically had even higher ERoEI (15–20 according to https://davidturver.substack.com/p/eroei-eroi-of-onshore-offshore-wind-power https://davidturver.substack.com/p/eroei-eroi-of-onshore-off...), and, while they do most commonly use rare earths, that's an engineering tradeoff rather than necessary; currently viable alternatives include switched-reluctance-machine generators (which just use conventional electrical steel, like transformers and relays) and other kinds of rare-earth-free generators: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301420717300077 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030142071...

by gene-h 2y ago

AtlasBarfed 2y ago

Solar panels enabling offgrid power is tagcloud-related to surviving human civilization collapse. We're entering an era of decreased globalism, where megacorporation scale actually becomes a danger to society due to reduced warehousing/stockpiling and long extended supply lines, and of course offshored manufacturing that goes with that.

margalabargala 2y ago
Before solar panels become impossible to purchase, they will be difficult to purchase. Before solar panels become difficult to purchase, they will become more expensive to purchase. Mass produced solar panels have been getting both cheaper and easier to get. What you describe could happen, but it's far enough off that we have not seen even the first warning signs yet.
- lukan 2y ago
  "What you describe could happen, but it's far enough off that we have not seen even the first warning signs yet." Well, some disagree on there being no warning signs. https://thebulletin.org/doomsday-clock/2025-statement/ https://thebulletin.org/doomsday-clock/2025-statement/
  - kragen 2y ago
    Yeah, if some shithead nukes China, solar panels would get expensive in a hurry.
  - margalabargala 2y ago
    Okay, sure, but that's no different than the same identical "warning signs" that people have been flipping out about since the 1960s. Maybe some individual country will have some collapse, but all of human civilization will not. I.maintain that if you're worried about any of that, you are still better off stockpiling panels now, than developing ways to make your own much worse ones in your backyard. DIY photovoltaics can be a fun hobby but for someone worried about an actual collapse they can acquire a lifetime supply of solar panels and batteries for less money and time than setting up a custom fab that's able to operate in a collapse situation.
    - lukan 2y ago
      Is your argument because we have not had a nuclear war yet, we will never have one? Can you elaborate? I would like to have your confidence .. And in general setting up a solar panel fab is maybe not the best prepper action, but for the point of distributing critical techologies for a potential reconstruction, I do see the point. There is individual survival and general progress of the species.
      - margalabargala 2y ago
        There's exactly one scenario that results in the actual technological collapse of our species, which is all out nuclear war between the US and Russia. Which with the current presidential administration, is possibly less likely than it's ever been; why would Russia nuke its newest ally? The chances of a nuclear weapon being used somewhere right now tactically I think are quite high. Russia in Ukraine, or Israel in Iran (or someday soon Iran in Israel), or between India and Pakistan. But none of those are sufficient to bring us to a point where home manufacturing of solar panels becomes remotely worthwhile.
        lukan 2y ago
        The problem is, except for the very first ones in Japan, there were never any nuclear weapons being used in a major war exactly for the unknown consequences of the other players. It is all interconnected. If one nuke is used, then there will be many on the other side applying pressure to also use a nuke. And so on. I assume much more countries secretly have nukes and the frontlines are somewhat blurry. Meaning, at the moment I am also not too worried, but if a nuke is used it will be a very high gamble, that it will be just the only one.

kilpikaarna 2y ago

hacker spirit and/or hedge against the end of the industrial age Personally, I don't have much faith in sustaining a modern industrial lifestyle for billions of people very long term on PV panels or any renewables really (EROEI issues, rare earth minerals etc.). But I'm bullish on electricity in general.

kragen 2y ago
By far the most common PV systems are single-junction monocrystalline silicon. These have had pretty decent ERoEI for many years (9–10 according to https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy17osti/67901.pdf https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy17osti/67901.pdf, but the energy required for PV modules has dropped precipitously since then) and don't use any rare-earth minerals. Wind turbines have typically had even higher ERoEI (15–20 according to https://davidturver.substack.com/p/eroei-eroi-of-onshore-offshore-wind-power https://davidturver.substack.com/p/eroei-eroi-of-onshore-off...), and, while they do most commonly use rare earths, that's an engineering tradeoff rather than necessary; currently viable alternatives include switched-reluctance-machine generators (which just use conventional electrical steel, like transformers and relays) and other kinds of rare-earth-free generators: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301420717300077 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030142071...