4 ms·

My father-in-law told me he watched that game live when he was a kid, and he just gasped when Fischer played Bxh2. (This is before engines or eval bars). Spassk

My father-in-law told me he watched that game live when he was a kid, and he just gasped when Fischer played Bxh2. (This is before engines or eval bars). Spassky did well to convert, but this is more about Fischer's mistake than Spassky. This is the kind of blunder that you'd expect from a strong club player, not from Bobby Fischer. Although I understand that Fischer was brilliant but inconsistent, and to be fair, the last chess championship matches had a share of blunders.

alex1138 2y ago
It's almost a certainty Fischer didn't just "not notice" the bishop would be trapped, he just miscalculated further down the line (in fact if you plug it into an engine, it shows an equal evaluation) It's one of the single biggest misconceptions ever, it gets repeated endlessly
- bonzini 2y ago
  It still doesn't make any sense, even if he knew that the bishop was trapped. Black is the only side that can lose.
  - alex1138 2y ago
    Maybe, and you can argue it was a bad practical choice, but the way it usually gets DESCRIBED is basically "Fischer missed bishop get trap lol". It's really braindead
- verbify 2y ago
  Interesting, I never knew that. Engine does give +0.6 to Spassky, so the move slightly made Fischer's position worse (https://lichess.org/study/Eyl4uwTZ/TUx5RZIk https://lichess.org/study/Eyl4uwTZ/TUx5RZIk) and the engine thinks f4 (on move 40) was the blunder. I'm not qualified to analyse this, I read into it a bit more and apparently he was trying to complicate the game, the 1973 tournament book only marks it as ?!.
  - mlyle 2y ago
    > the engine thinks f4 (on move 40) was the blunder. The engine knows what move would be a blunder for computer play. It doesn't know what move made the position impossibly tricky for a human to maintain for black. Every game that I analyze, there's possible moves where the computer will trade endless complexity for one's side for a couple centipawn advantage. These are moves that a human should not play.
    - DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
      It's difficult to convey why computer evaluations are not always a good measure for whether a move made by a human is good. I think the main point is that computers are so much better than humans at playing chess that what might be a reasonable move for them is effectively a terrible blunder for a human. It's like comparing a student driver with an F1 pro, and saying, "It's totally reasonable for the student driver to yank the wheel to the right when driving at 300 km/h, because an F1 driver would be able to recover from that." The point is that the student driver won't be able to follow up with near-superhuman ability to save the situation.
      - mlyle 2y ago
        Yes-- this is well put. Of course, in this case, the engine doesn't think this is a particularly reasonable move; the evaluation just fails to show how bad it would be for a human-- even a near-superhuman chess player like prime Fischer-- to play.
- rybosworld 2y ago
  > in fact if you plug it into an engine, it shows an equal evaluation This isn't true - that move takes the game from dead equal, to +0.7 (70 centipawns favor for Boris). It isn't a total blunder but it's objectively a poor move.
  - dmurray 2y ago
    A better engine or running the engine deeper will show 0.0 (or you need to show there are alternatives for White before 40... f4?!) Though this may be a situation where the weaker engine is actually more helpful in assessing the practical situation: +0.7 is a better reflection of the relative chances in a human game than 0.0.
- mlyle 2y ago
  > in fact if you plug it into an engine, it shows an equal evaluation I don't think this is true, and engine evals aren't everything. Two positions can have equal evaluations, but one can be trivial to play optimally and the other can be tricky and have a 10 move long sequence of "only moves" that are really hard to calculate. The latter is a much worse move, if you are not a chess engine.
  - sa46 2y ago
    Is there a chess metric that combines centipawns with a complexity metric?
  - billforsternz 2y ago
    Your last paragraph is the nicest capsule description of this very important and yet widely misunderstood computer chess concept I've seen. Thanks! I'm going to use this (probably poorly paraphrased due to my failing memory:).
    - h3half 2y ago
      I've often seen this described as the "sharpness" of a position
  - fsckboy 2y ago
    you are replying to a comment that says "he miscalculated an equal position further down the line" and your point of objection is that he miscalculated an equal position further down the line? still your move
    - mlyle 2y ago
      You've not understood what is said. If on move 29, you choose a move that is slightly worse but leave yourself in an extremely difficult position for you but an easy one for the other guy... And then only on move 40 does the eval extremely diverge... In my opinion, your real blunder was on move 29, not 40. Just because an engine could hold a position doesn't make it a reasonable move.
- bongodongobob 2y ago
  Idk, I'm an amateur and that just looks like an obvious terrible move. I don't get it. What's to calculate?
  - alex1138 2y ago
    Well Fischer wasn't an amateur and there's no evidence he just missed a one-move refutation
  - wetpaste 2y ago
    I don't think it was purely a calculation error, it was probably also an intuitive evaluation. Bobby was trying to complicate the game and create an imbalance, where there were still winning chances if misplayed by spassky, but obviously it was a bad evaluation and it backfired. I think he was in a bit of a mood and got reckless. He had been making a lot of demands leading up to this and threats to not participate, probably got frustrated by the drawn endgame and took a big risk. I don't think he ever really opened up about his reasoning to be fair, but was asked along the lines of "were you trying to complicate the game" and he said "something like that". After losing those first two games he demanded the cameras to be removed from the playing hall and started to play really well against spassky, so possibly a psychological aspect from the cameras were also to blame. Maybe he knew he was throwing the game and it'd make for an entertaining match... the guy was sort of insane
- beyondCritics 2y ago
  > It's one of the single biggest misconceptions ever, it gets repeated endlessly FM Roese here (best DWZ 2399). I agree, figuring or even conjecturing that Fischer overlooked 30.g3 is totally insane. However he also did not saw the theoretical draw, this strikes me even more off. He never opened up about his idea, so in all likelihood he calculated something very stupid. > if you plug it into an engine, it shows an equal evaluation They criticized this argument rightly, but many basically repeated your mistake in the process of doing so. All engines use some evolved adaption of iterative refinement, be it either "Iterative deepening" (of an alpha beta search) [1] or "UCT" [2]. If you post computer evaluations you should at the very least give the reported nominal search depth and the engine name and version, otherwise you are just asking for trouble. On computer chess fora [0] they often post the whole log file bluntly. [0] https://www.talkchess.com/ https://www.talkchess.com/ [1] https://www.chessprogramming.org/Iterative_Deepening https://www.chessprogramming.org/Iterative_Deepening [2] https://www.chessprogramming.org/UCT https://www.chessprogramming.org/UCT

alex1138 2y ago

It's almost a certainty Fischer didn't just "not notice" the bishop would be trapped, he just miscalculated further down the line (in fact if you plug it into an engine, it shows an equal evaluation) It's one of the single biggest misconceptions ever, it gets repeated endlessly

bonzini 2y ago
It still doesn't make any sense, even if he knew that the bishop was trapped. Black is the only side that can lose.
- alex1138 2y ago
  Maybe, and you can argue it was a bad practical choice, but the way it usually gets DESCRIBED is basically "Fischer missed bishop get trap lol". It's really braindead
verbify 2y ago
Interesting, I never knew that. Engine does give +0.6 to Spassky, so the move slightly made Fischer's position worse (https://lichess.org/study/Eyl4uwTZ/TUx5RZIk https://lichess.org/study/Eyl4uwTZ/TUx5RZIk) and the engine thinks f4 (on move 40) was the blunder. I'm not qualified to analyse this, I read into it a bit more and apparently he was trying to complicate the game, the 1973 tournament book only marks it as ?!.
- mlyle 2y ago
  > the engine thinks f4 (on move 40) was the blunder. The engine knows what move would be a blunder for computer play. It doesn't know what move made the position impossibly tricky for a human to maintain for black. Every game that I analyze, there's possible moves where the computer will trade endless complexity for one's side for a couple centipawn advantage. These are moves that a human should not play.
  - DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
    It's difficult to convey why computer evaluations are not always a good measure for whether a move made by a human is good. I think the main point is that computers are so much better than humans at playing chess that what might be a reasonable move for them is effectively a terrible blunder for a human. It's like comparing a student driver with an F1 pro, and saying, "It's totally reasonable for the student driver to yank the wheel to the right when driving at 300 km/h, because an F1 driver would be able to recover from that." The point is that the student driver won't be able to follow up with near-superhuman ability to save the situation.
    - mlyle 2y ago
      Yes-- this is well put. Of course, in this case, the engine doesn't think this is a particularly reasonable move; the evaluation just fails to show how bad it would be for a human-- even a near-superhuman chess player like prime Fischer-- to play.
rybosworld 2y ago
> in fact if you plug it into an engine, it shows an equal evaluation This isn't true - that move takes the game from dead equal, to +0.7 (70 centipawns favor for Boris). It isn't a total blunder but it's objectively a poor move.
- dmurray 2y ago
  A better engine or running the engine deeper will show 0.0 (or you need to show there are alternatives for White before 40... f4?!) Though this may be a situation where the weaker engine is actually more helpful in assessing the practical situation: +0.7 is a better reflection of the relative chances in a human game than 0.0.
mlyle 2y ago
> in fact if you plug it into an engine, it shows an equal evaluation I don't think this is true, and engine evals aren't everything. Two positions can have equal evaluations, but one can be trivial to play optimally and the other can be tricky and have a 10 move long sequence of "only moves" that are really hard to calculate. The latter is a much worse move, if you are not a chess engine.
- sa46 2y ago
  Is there a chess metric that combines centipawns with a complexity metric?
- billforsternz 2y ago
  Your last paragraph is the nicest capsule description of this very important and yet widely misunderstood computer chess concept I've seen. Thanks! I'm going to use this (probably poorly paraphrased due to my failing memory:).
  - h3half 2y ago
    I've often seen this described as the "sharpness" of a position
- fsckboy 2y ago
  you are replying to a comment that says "he miscalculated an equal position further down the line" and your point of objection is that he miscalculated an equal position further down the line? still your move
  - mlyle 2y ago
    You've not understood what is said. If on move 29, you choose a move that is slightly worse but leave yourself in an extremely difficult position for you but an easy one for the other guy... And then only on move 40 does the eval extremely diverge... In my opinion, your real blunder was on move 29, not 40. Just because an engine could hold a position doesn't make it a reasonable move.
bongodongobob 2y ago
Idk, I'm an amateur and that just looks like an obvious terrible move. I don't get it. What's to calculate?
- alex1138 2y ago
  Well Fischer wasn't an amateur and there's no evidence he just missed a one-move refutation
- wetpaste 2y ago
  I don't think it was purely a calculation error, it was probably also an intuitive evaluation. Bobby was trying to complicate the game and create an imbalance, where there were still winning chances if misplayed by spassky, but obviously it was a bad evaluation and it backfired. I think he was in a bit of a mood and got reckless. He had been making a lot of demands leading up to this and threats to not participate, probably got frustrated by the drawn endgame and took a big risk. I don't think he ever really opened up about his reasoning to be fair, but was asked along the lines of "were you trying to complicate the game" and he said "something like that". After losing those first two games he demanded the cameras to be removed from the playing hall and started to play really well against spassky, so possibly a psychological aspect from the cameras were also to blame. Maybe he knew he was throwing the game and it'd make for an entertaining match... the guy was sort of insane
beyondCritics 2y ago
> It's one of the single biggest misconceptions ever, it gets repeated endlessly FM Roese here (best DWZ 2399). I agree, figuring or even conjecturing that Fischer overlooked 30.g3 is totally insane. However he also did not saw the theoretical draw, this strikes me even more off. He never opened up about his idea, so in all likelihood he calculated something very stupid. > if you plug it into an engine, it shows an equal evaluation They criticized this argument rightly, but many basically repeated your mistake in the process of doing so. All engines use some evolved adaption of iterative refinement, be it either "Iterative deepening" (of an alpha beta search) [1] or "UCT" [2]. If you post computer evaluations you should at the very least give the reported nominal search depth and the engine name and version, otherwise you are just asking for trouble. On computer chess fora [0] they often post the whole log file bluntly. [0] https://www.talkchess.com/ https://www.talkchess.com/ [1] https://www.chessprogramming.org/Iterative_Deepening https://www.chessprogramming.org/Iterative_Deepening [2] https://www.chessprogramming.org/UCT https://www.chessprogramming.org/UCT