7 ms·

Why “just do it” is bullshit

98 points by dwynings 14y ago

jhuckestein 14y ago
This article seems to be all about the definition of "everything" in "everything is possible if you put your mind to it". For the author "everything" includes swimming faster than Michael Phelps even if you didn't start swimming at an age of 7. That's a tough one. The saying is much more useful if you consider only the things that are possible given the current circumstances. I may not become as fast as Michael Phelps, but I can definitely become as fast as I can possibly be given my current situation. If you look at it that way, "Just do it" applies and it's a good motto to live by.
- ngokevin 14y ago
  Well put, the article takes 'everything' a bit literally. Why strive to swim better than Michael Phelps? Just swim to swim and get better (forget trying to be the best in the world and just simply do it).
- piggity 14y ago
  If you believe what you read, it takes ~10000 hours to master an activity. Most people give up long before then. So people almost never achieve their real potential which is really what Phelps and the blog are really about. That Phelps used "some" hyperbole is not surprising - he didn't spend that 10000 hours honing his public speaking.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- swah 14y ago
  Related to this, I'm trying to be less technical/picky when talking to people. I gain nothing when I interrupt someone to correct their bad phrasing, if I already understood what they mean't. I'm just being annoying and pushing people away.
samstokes 14y ago
While his complaint about "stating the problem as the solution" resonates with me, I found this post gained a lot more meaning when I noticed who the author was: Buster Benson, founder of a number of startups with the explicit goal of helping people make beneficial changes to their own behaviour. He's not just whining "this stuff is hard, give us a break" - he's calling for more attention on techniques for doing hard things. This post from the same blog is one of the most positive and insightful "my startup is shutting down" posts I've read: http://wayoftheduck.com/a-duck-bears-no-grudges http://wayoftheduck.com/a-duck-bears-no-grudges > I’m not going to wait until I have a success story to start telling it.
- joelrunyon 14y ago
  I think you're the only person that "got" that from this article. He didn't put forth a solution - he simply complained about what he didn't like/felt was unfair - which is what most people are annoyed with.
nsmartt 14y ago
The point here is that natural advantages make you more capable for some things than others. You can't be blamed for not being able to achieve something that you shouldn't have realistically expected to achieve. That said, some things are your fault. I still bite my nails at 19. Forcing myself to quit is possible, and I have only myself to blame if I don't. It's the same for weight-loss, so that's a horrible example.
madamepsychosis 14y ago
It's not really true, but I've always thought of it as a slogan to dispel irrational fear around trying something new. In that it has it's use.
steve8918 14y ago
Sorry, but this is the dumbest blog post I've read in a while. I'm not even sure why he even bothered posting this. Is it really to say "Hard work is never enough if you want to be the top person in the world at something"? Did he just recently come to the conclusion that he has been "lied" to in that hard work isn't enough some times, and that luck and natural advantage could somehow trump everything else? Of course not everyone can become an Olympic athlete just by trying. And of course not everyone will be the next Steve Jobs or Zuckerberg no matter how hard they try, either. That's not the point. The point is that most people don't even bother trying, and if you try, if you even just show up on a regular basis, you can probably reach above the 50th percentile in anything. I would bet that almost anyone who puts a concerted effort into any endeavor could get to the top 25th percentile in just about anything. Hard work and hustle can bridge a lot of gap that natural ability and luck may create. But if he is somehow just now coming to some epiphany that hard work can't trump luck and/or natural advantage (either thru ability or status), then my answer is: "Welcome to the real world." You need to temper any goals you have with maturity and realism. I'm a terrible basketball player, but I'm sure if I spent 1hr/day every day playing pickup for 1 year, by the end of a year, I'll be better than at least half of the regulars. But if my expectations are that I'll be able to dunk and beat Michael Jordan, I'd be delusional.
- talbina 14y ago
  Thank you. One the most inspirational comments on HN in a while.
- olliesaunders 14y ago
  Can I ask you this: what purpose are you inferring the author had in writing this article?
  - drumdance 14y ago
    That he's annoyed by a platitude from an athlete in a puff-piece interview.
- wicknicks 14y ago
  Excellent reply. Couldn't agree more.
postfuturist 14y ago
More inane babbling by svbtle bloggers. How is this hacker news worthy?
- autodidakto 14y ago
  First time I've seen a front page article blasted by 100% of the comments. Finally, complete agreement in the comment section! I'm wondering how it got to the front page too.
- philwelch 14y ago
  But it's an exclusive invite-only blog network!! /sarcasm
xiaoma 14y ago
If you or I had started swimming at age 4 and had top coaching, There would be little hope against a genetic freak like Phelps. Also, the existence of him and many other slightly less extreme genetic freaks means that it would be a very, very poor idea to invest time in trying to become a great swimmer. Unlike them, we'd have no career prospects. The author was right. It's much better to invest time and effort into a pursuit where you have an advantage. And it follows logically that if you don't have any natural advantages, then you should stay the heck away from winner-take-all professions.
natarius 14y ago
dumbest blog post I read in a while. sorry that you had a shitty day dude...but don't worry, there is better ones coming up :)
Xcelerate 14y ago
I've always thought that at a local level, you can become the best with enough hard work. Want to be the fastest runner, swimmer, or the student with the highest grades at your high school? Just work harder. It gets more difficult when you reach world-class. That's where genetics come into play, because at that point it's hard to argue that anyone is really outworking anyone else.
BlackJack 14y ago
What a bunch of negative bullshit. What do you expect Michael Phelps to say? "Hey kids who look up to me, don't follow your dreams because you probably don't have the right set of genes. Just acknowledge it's difficult and move on." People act like being "world class" is some big mystery, but not in the 21st century. Extensive research has come to the conclusion that deliberate practice, over a long period of time, with the appropriate guidance of coaches and mentors is necessary and mostly sufficient to produce expertise in a field. No, I don't think anyone can be Michael Phelps. In fact, it is clear that physical advantages go a long way in sports and athletic events. In almost everything else though, the right approach can produce mastery. The Polgar family is a living example of that w.r.t. chess. And most people are not looking to become world champions - they simply want to be successful in their endeavors. For that to happen, you must apply the same principles. To lose weight, I agree that saying "just diet and work out" is difficult, but most effective programs are either a result of intrinsic motivation or someone implementing a gradual program where you first cut out some sugar, then all soda, then cake, then you start eating one good meal a day, and so on and so forth. In my view, this post marginalizes human willpower, which I consider one of the strongest forces in the world. Sure you won't be Michael Phelps, but you could say "No matter how hard you try, you will never become a Redwood," and I think the result is the same. Most people don't aspire to be world champion swimmers or extremely tall trees. They want to be successful in their endeavors, and for reasonably well off people in the Western world (which I think describes a large part of this board), there really isn't anything holding you back. Ericsson et al. published a review of this field (expertise) in The Cambridge Handbook of Expertise and Expert Performance (http://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Expertise-Performance-Handbooks-Psychology/dp/0521600812 http://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Expertise-Performance-Handbo...). It's 900 pages but if you can't make it through a serious book then you sure as hell can't succeed in anything that requires real dedication.
- einhverfr 14y ago
  Also don't underestimate the importance of dreams in inspiring us. Inspiration can be seen as what makes perspiration possible. I have seen people who had significant physical disabilities become inspired and overcome those to a large extent within the domains of one activity or another. Inspiration can make us extraordinary, if we are willing to follow it and put in the effort.
DanielRibeiro 14y ago
Counter point from the VC Mark Suster, from 2009[1]: What Makes an Entrepreneur? Four Letters: JFDI [1] http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2009/11/19/what-makes-an-entrepreneur-four-lettersjfdi/ http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2009/11/19/what-makes-an-...
alexshye 14y ago
IMHO, this blog post only sees a narrow part of the picture, and gets it wrong. To get anything done, we need to (1) have the desire, (2) turn this desire into action, and (3) continue the action and fight through barriers until we achieve what we want. "Just do it" works well as a mantra to turn the desire into action. However, after this step, there is a whole lot more. How much natural ability do you have? How hard are you working? How much competition is there in the area? Are there political, legal, or other barriers in the way? There are many factors determining how far you will go. But, getting started is better than not getting started at all. This is an important step that is often not taken. A more accurate way to put is is that "just do it" is necessary, but not sufficient. I should say that I just wrote a blog post in the "just do it" camp so it may skew my views: http://alexshye.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/the-most-important-lesson-i-ever-learned/ http://alexshye.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/the-most-important-...
dredmorbius 14y ago
Wanking article. I've known several (relatively) late-blooming competitive swimmers who didn't begin training until their teenage years, and a few other athletes who began later than that (20s, 30s, and beyond), reaching national or international class. Gail Roper comes to mind. She was largely passed over for swimming in high school, but came to be one of the most dominant masters and open-water swimmers of all time. A few decades back I had the distinct pleasure of being beat by over 4 minutes by her, which I figured was fine given that she had a 40 year head start. http://www.girlscantwhat.com/meet-gail-roper-the-most-dominant-swimmer-ever/ http://www.girlscantwhat.com/meet-gail-roper-the-most-domina... The "you can do anything" mentality is, of course, false on its face. Athletes, entrepreneurs, and artists, when confronted with a microphone shoved into their face, will say whatever damned fool thing pops into their head, sometimes honestly, often not. If you want to know the real secrets to their success, look at what they do, not what they say. And yes, Phelps is a genetic freak pretty much uniquely suited to swimming. He's also just another human being. And at the end of a race, his muscles and lungs are burning just like anyone else's would be. That said, the accomplishment domain most of us are competing in is "doing stuff", surrounded by others trying to do the same thing. If you want to become accomplished at something, then a mix of innate ability, talent, and hard work will push you somewhere toward the envelope. Perhaps well inside, perhaps outside. A huge part of success, beyond what you can't control (your genes, circumstances, starting at age 7) is to practice efficiency in how you go about reaching your goal. As many hours as a person puts into pursuing a given goal, there are far more hours spent not pursing it. In the tech world, most of us come to realize that beyond a few hours a day, if we're lucky, we're not terribly productive. Athletes may spend a few hours a day engaged in training, but the real pay-off moments may be a few minutes of Tabata intervals, or a set or two of max-effort lifts. Everything else is preparation, support, preventive measures, recovery, or just plain goofing around. What's impressive is how little of the right effort is required to improve your ability. Perhaps not win you a gold medal, but at least to nudge you in that direction. In another context I saw yet another question of the form "how much can I expect to progress if I do X?", and saw the usual responses, some backed with links to substantial research, of what typical and outstanding progress might be. One response came close to what I realized was the right answer: "and if you don't hit some goal rate of progress, are you going to quit?". The answer is: you'll make more progress than if you don't do X. So: pick a reasonable goal, within the realms of physics and biological attainability. Find out if it really suits you (are you doing this for you, for for someone else). Find effective means of attaining your goal. Apply those methods. Monitor your progress. You may find you are able to go further. You may find the goal is out of reach. You may find the goal doesn't interest you. But you tried, and you learned something.
jamesmcn 14y ago
I don't find the world's best athletes inspiring, precisely because they often benefit from quirks of their physiology that I don't share or training that dates back to their single-digit years, or both. I do find athletes in technical sports like sailing, rock climbing, extreme-depth diving inspiring because those sports require a combination of physical ability and problem solving. Sailing is particularly inspiring because even the least able sailor is able to leverage some of the most powerful forces on earth to their advantage. But even Dennis Conner can't sail directly into the wind. Getting back to the original post, I do find it useful as an engineer to attempt impossible things from time to time. Often the impossible is just inside our heads. Sometimes our expectations for our self are too low. But sometimes our egos are too big and we benefit from failing at something impossible too. There's some truth to Phelps' statement. But if you find yourself on an alien planet, don't take off your space suit and start petting the weird snake-creatures.
- fluorescentLAMP 14y ago
  >because those sports require a combination of physical ability and problem solving I don't understand. Are you saying popular sports like soccer don't require problem solving?
  - jamesmcn 14y ago
    I can see how team sports are interesting, I'm just not that into them. They definitely require problem solving.
- vacri 14y ago
  What problems get solved during an extreme depth dive? How are they more complex than what other athletes face?
  - jamesmcn 14y ago
    I'm not a diver, but the overall logistics of how to get exactly the right amount of oxygen into your system is fairly interesting. Rebreather technology has been pushed and developed by the same people who use it.
c00p3r 14y ago
who says so?
tkiley 14y ago
Before my wife and I got married, we had a very intense year-long running argument about this exact topic. She told me I could do anything I wanted to do; I told her that was bullshit. I think this argument may have delayed our marriage significantly. :) Since then, I've noticed that naively optimistic views are relatively common among people who accomplish interesting things. It's almost as if naive optimism is a semi-necessary precursor to remarkable achievement. "You can do anything" is nonsense. It's a crutch. But many people use this crutch to get to really cool places, and I can't help but respect their accomplishments in the end.
- einhverfr 14y ago
  "You can do anything passably" is not nonsense though. Anyone without a major disability can learn how to write working code. Anyone without a major disability can learn how to play the piano a bit. Anyone can learn how to make a knife, a sword, or a bow, or a pair of shoes. You may never beat Phelps, but you can still learn to swim and have fun doing it. It might even save your life. You may never be world class at most of these things regardless of what you put into it, but you can do it well enough to contribute to happiness in your life and in the end, that's really what matters.
- diego 14y ago
  I'm a lucky pessimist. I've done really well for my standards, and I'll be the first to admit that luck played a huge role. I don't think being naively optimistic is semi-necessary. It may help in not giving up when things are not going your way. You can be a pessimist and still be persistent as hell. Sometimes you're pleasantly surprised, the rest of the time things just suck as expected :)
- jessedhillon 14y ago
  I posted an article earlier this week that got no traction, but discusses exactly this. According to the article and the paper it references, people fall predominantly into two populations which are distingquished by their beliefs vis-a-vis achievement. The first population believes, inherently and without evidence, in the supremacy of accomplishing achievements. People in second population have as their primary motive the avoidance of failure. The paper and the article go on to detail the set of post-hoc rationalizations which support these beliefs, and how these were discovered. Article and paper: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/youre-hired/201110/how-do-high-achievers-really-think http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/youre-hired/201110/how-d... HN (non-)discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4307947 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4307947
justin 14y ago
Loser's attitude. Yes, it might be impossible to be the best just by putting in hard work. But hard work and belief that you can accomplish is prerequisite to ever finding out if you can be the best.
ryguytilidie 14y ago
Wow these responses are pretty shocking to me. To me this reads much more like the Steinbeck quote of “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” We end up talking about how amazing it is that these people have accomplished what they have but don't bother to consider that there are others who could not possibly have gotten that because they don't have the advantages the other person did. I'm not super familiar with Phelp's backstory, but I assume he swam a fuckton when he was younger, his parents drove him around the country to events, etc. Many people don't have the time, money and resources to do these things. Telling a poor kid "just do what Michael Phelps did" while ignoring the vast, vast difference between their situations is completely ridiculous and kind of the way our society now works. Not successful because you couldnt afford to go to school because you had to bring home money to help your parents pay the rent? Hearing "just work as hard as I did" from some white republican kid who got a trust fund is basically the same thing you guys are saying everyone should just overcome.
- wonderzombie 14y ago
  Yep. This is what I took away from it. Let's be honest: the predominant socioeconomic class among hackers and entrepreneurs is a set who have a relatively large set of advantages, many of which are unexamined. This comment thread is a textbook reaction to an accusation that maybe, just maybe, some people have advantages which have directly or indirectly contributed to their success, perhaps as much as any other factor. Some people call this "loser" talk, when I'd say, aggregated across not just our own extremely narrow cross-section of society, it's pretty realistic. As he says, the corollary to "just do it" is that if you didn't succeed, it's because you weren't trying. That may not be what anyone here is suggesting (or it may!), but it's undeniable that there's an entire political party in the US which takes this as an article of faith. If you're wealthy, it's because you earned it; if it's poor, you're not working hard enough. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor%E2%80%93observer_asymmetry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor%E2%80%93observer_asymmetr... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_phenomenon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_phenomenon I do think there is something to the idea of XX% of success is just showing up. It's just that "showing up" elides plenty of complexity and it's not often I see people acknowledge that.
joelrunyon 14y ago
The biggest problem I have with this article is it offers absolutely NO alternative. So, "just do it" is bullshit. Okay, say we buy that point (which I didn't). If that's the case, what are we supposed to do, just sit around and be pissed we can't swim a 50m in a nanosecond? Sure, you're not guaranteed success if you try to do it, but you're sure as hell not going to do ANYTHING at all if you just sit around and complain how everyone has more advantages than you. EVERYONE has a particular set of disadvantages - some people just choose to let theirs limit them more than others.
zzzeek 14y ago
"just do it" is the opposite of the "anything is possible if you put your mind to it" slogan. The "anything is possible" slogan implies that failure is always surmountable, which it obviously isn't. "just do it" means specifically, "so what if you won't be an olympic star, won't lose 200 pounds or win a marathon, won't become a millionaire, even if your attempts fail and you totally suck at something, if you truly are interested in it and have a passion for it, don't discourage yourself, just do it anyway." Life is all about showing up and trying. I played for years with a singer-songwriter who was just awful - tone deaf, fairly dorky, lame songs, guitar strings popping out, pretty bad. We were booed on stage more than once. After a couple of years I couldn't take it anymore and I quit that band. Years later I saw him play and he was totally great, had a fanbase and everything, and had done several tours in europe where he got really polished. He kept at it for years, learned as much as he could from everyone he interacted with, and eventually learned enough to start playing first acceptably, then actually pretty well, within his niche, and today he makes his living full time as a musician. He was simply incapable of was taking to heart all the negative responses he got. They kind of just bounced off of him, and he persevered. When I saw him perform, one of his songs was called "Everything Sucks", and it was specifically about me and the really negative attitude I always had when we used to play together. Fans in the audience cheered for the song and they knew the words. It was sort of a teaching moment about negativity for me. Anyway that's what "just do it" means. It means don't let negativity get in the way of what you feel like doing.
- NathanRice 14y ago
  Thanks for the unique perspective Mike :) Next time I'm in NYC I definitely need to buy you a beer.
slimemold 14y ago
I don't have a prob with the post, but as someone trying to "just do it," this quote helps me: "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark."
rapind 14y ago
I'm a fan of the Dan Plan. Pretty cool idea. You should check it out: http://thedanplan.com/ http://thedanplan.com/
zobzu 14y ago
Bullshit is beautiful. I like that :)
lancefisher 14y ago
Olympians are the best in the world by definition. Anymore, it takes a combination of talent, hard work, and opportunity to compete at that level. However, almost anyone who really tries can get fit. That takes perseverence, and it is possible.
bialecki 14y ago
Not to commercialize the conversation, but this Nike ad (pretty creative IMO) speaks well to this issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsXRj89cWa0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsXRj89cWa0. The problem with this post is it says nothing about what the alternative is. I guess it's implicit: give up. I'd rather believe I can do it, work like hell and then see where I come up short. But if others would rather sit on the couch explaining why they didn't try, that's cool too.
jakeonthemove 14y ago
Add to that the fact that disadvantages are just as real as the advantages and it's pretty much spot on.
danso 14y ago
The argument that Phelps's success is paritularly reliant on his genetic build is slightly begging the question. His physical features are considered to be ideal for a top swimmer because, well, a top swimmer happens to have them. This does not automatically rule out the possibility that a swimmer with a shorter wingspan could break Phelps' record...because that person may have adapted to that deficiency by improving on a quality that was less important to someone of Phelps' wingspan...in the way that people with a missing limb or sense become stronger in the other ones. This is all just to say that not-trying can't be predicated on "well, I don't share the same qualities as the current record holder"
dinkumthinkum 14y ago
Was this written by a high schooler? I mean, if some freshman said this, most of us would just chock this up to being a smart aleck, sheltered kid with too much time on their hands and thus points the most banal things "You can't swim 100m butterfly in 1ns." Is that supposed to be edifying? Obviously, when people say "anything is possible you just have to work at it" or things like that, they assume the audience is reasonable. They aren't saying a 100 year old in a nursing home is going to be able to play in the NHL competitively by just working hard. What kind of gibberish is this?
deleted 14y ago
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humbyvaldes 14y ago
Jeremy Lin... need I say more
BklynJay 14y ago
Well that blog post was a self-wallowing waste of time.
chubbard 14y ago
Dude it's just a pep talk we tell each other to focus us on executing over psyching ourselves out with over thinking, over strategizing, and noise of others telling us its stupid. Kinda like you're doing now. Apparently you'll need a new customized phrase to help you focus so here it is: Shut up and just do it.
djt 14y ago
I think there is a problem with the algorithm that is used for pages getting to the front page, to be honest. Pretty much every comment on here is about how vapid this post is, but how did it get to the front page???
NathanRice 14y ago
Natural advantages are typically a fairly small boost. In most cases it is possible to modify the way you do things to take advantage of your anatomy and physiology. File this one under "know thyself". Also, don't forget that there are enough people out there that someone with all the natural advantages is going to be working insanely hard. This is why having olympic aspirations is unrealistic; in a realm where a few tenths of a second is the difference between gold and going home empty handed, natural advantages matter. Don't just work hard, think hard, explore all your options, understand what you are trying to do on a deeper level, then attack it as if your life or death depended on the outcome. Failure cannot be an option.
kkotak 14y ago
I think the points here are - 1. Phelps is at the top based on the system of measurement we've agreed upon. No need to worship him. 2. Use him to inspire yoursleves in the endeavours YOU want to undertake, and NOT to become Phelps. 3. Stop feeling bad about yourselves for not being Phelps. 4. Use happiness as your yardstick and not what others think about you. 5. Don't force yourself to immitate others, instead spend time on discovering what you love and allow/push yourself to excel in it. 6. If you do, you'll enjoy watching Phelps and move on with your life. 7. Replace Phelps above with Jobs/Jordan/James Bond... Peace. K

98 points by dwynings 14y ago

This article seems to be all about the definition of "everything" in "everything is possible if you put your mind to it". For the author "everything" includes swimming faster than Michael Phelps even if you didn't start swimming at an age of 7. That's a tough one. The saying is much more useful if you consider only the things that are possible given the current circumstances. I may not become as fast as Michael Phelps, but I can definitely become as fast as I can possibly be given my current situation. If you look at it that way, "Just do it" applies and it's a good motto to live by.

ngokevin 14y ago
Well put, the article takes 'everything' a bit literally. Why strive to swim better than Michael Phelps? Just swim to swim and get better (forget trying to be the best in the world and just simply do it).
piggity 14y ago
If you believe what you read, it takes ~10000 hours to master an activity. Most people give up long before then. So people almost never achieve their real potential which is really what Phelps and the blog are really about. That Phelps used "some" hyperbole is not surprising - he didn't spend that 10000 hours honing his public speaking.
deleted 14y ago
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swah 14y ago
Related to this, I'm trying to be less technical/picky when talking to people. I gain nothing when I interrupt someone to correct their bad phrasing, if I already understood what they mean't. I'm just being annoying and pushing people away.

samstokes 14y ago

While his complaint about "stating the problem as the solution" resonates with me, I found this post gained a lot more meaning when I noticed who the author was: Buster Benson, founder of a number of startups with the explicit goal of helping people make beneficial changes to their own behaviour. He's not just whining "this stuff is hard, give us a break" - he's calling for more attention on techniques for doing hard things. This post from the same blog is one of the most positive and insightful "my startup is shutting down" posts I've read: http://wayoftheduck.com/a-duck-bears-no-grudges http://wayoftheduck.com/a-duck-bears-no-grudges > I’m not going to wait until I have a success story to start telling it.

joelrunyon 14y ago
I think you're the only person that "got" that from this article. He didn't put forth a solution - he simply complained about what he didn't like/felt was unfair - which is what most people are annoyed with.

nsmartt 14y ago

The point here is that natural advantages make you more capable for some things than others. You can't be blamed for not being able to achieve something that you shouldn't have realistically expected to achieve. That said, some things are your fault. I still bite my nails at 19. Forcing myself to quit is possible, and I have only myself to blame if I don't. It's the same for weight-loss, so that's a horrible example.

madamepsychosis 14y ago

It's not really true, but I've always thought of it as a slogan to dispel irrational fear around trying something new. In that it has it's use.

steve8918 14y ago

Sorry, but this is the dumbest blog post I've read in a while. I'm not even sure why he even bothered posting this. Is it really to say "Hard work is never enough if you want to be the top person in the world at something"? Did he just recently come to the conclusion that he has been "lied" to in that hard work isn't enough some times, and that luck and natural advantage could somehow trump everything else? Of course not everyone can become an Olympic athlete just by trying. And of course not everyone will be the next Steve Jobs or Zuckerberg no matter how hard they try, either. That's not the point. The point is that most people don't even bother trying, and if you try, if you even just show up on a regular basis, you can probably reach above the 50th percentile in anything. I would bet that almost anyone who puts a concerted effort into any endeavor could get to the top 25th percentile in just about anything. Hard work and hustle can bridge a lot of gap that natural ability and luck may create. But if he is somehow just now coming to some epiphany that hard work can't trump luck and/or natural advantage (either thru ability or status), then my answer is: "Welcome to the real world." You need to temper any goals you have with maturity and realism. I'm a terrible basketball player, but I'm sure if I spent 1hr/day every day playing pickup for 1 year, by the end of a year, I'll be better than at least half of the regulars. But if my expectations are that I'll be able to dunk and beat Michael Jordan, I'd be delusional.

talbina 14y ago
Thank you. One the most inspirational comments on HN in a while.
olliesaunders 14y ago
Can I ask you this: what purpose are you inferring the author had in writing this article?
- drumdance 14y ago
  That he's annoyed by a platitude from an athlete in a puff-piece interview.
wicknicks 14y ago
Excellent reply. Couldn't agree more.

postfuturist 14y ago

More inane babbling by svbtle bloggers. How is this hacker news worthy?

autodidakto 14y ago
First time I've seen a front page article blasted by 100% of the comments. Finally, complete agreement in the comment section! I'm wondering how it got to the front page too.
philwelch 14y ago
But it's an exclusive invite-only blog network!! /sarcasm

xiaoma 14y ago

If you or I had started swimming at age 4 and had top coaching, There would be little hope against a genetic freak like Phelps. Also, the existence of him and many other slightly less extreme genetic freaks means that it would be a very, very poor idea to invest time in trying to become a great swimmer. Unlike them, we'd have no career prospects. The author was right. It's much better to invest time and effort into a pursuit where you have an advantage. And it follows logically that if you don't have any natural advantages, then you should stay the heck away from winner-take-all professions.

natarius 14y ago

dumbest blog post I read in a while. sorry that you had a shitty day dude...but don't worry, there is better ones coming up :)

Xcelerate 14y ago

I've always thought that at a local level, you can become the best with enough hard work. Want to be the fastest runner, swimmer, or the student with the highest grades at your high school? Just work harder. It gets more difficult when you reach world-class. That's where genetics come into play, because at that point it's hard to argue that anyone is really outworking anyone else.

BlackJack 14y ago

What a bunch of negative bullshit. What do you expect Michael Phelps to say? "Hey kids who look up to me, don't follow your dreams because you probably don't have the right set of genes. Just acknowledge it's difficult and move on." People act like being "world class" is some big mystery, but not in the 21st century. Extensive research has come to the conclusion that deliberate practice, over a long period of time, with the appropriate guidance of coaches and mentors is necessary and mostly sufficient to produce expertise in a field. No, I don't think anyone can be Michael Phelps. In fact, it is clear that physical advantages go a long way in sports and athletic events. In almost everything else though, the right approach can produce mastery. The Polgar family is a living example of that w.r.t. chess. And most people are not looking to become world champions - they simply want to be successful in their endeavors. For that to happen, you must apply the same principles. To lose weight, I agree that saying "just diet and work out" is difficult, but most effective programs are either a result of intrinsic motivation or someone implementing a gradual program where you first cut out some sugar, then all soda, then cake, then you start eating one good meal a day, and so on and so forth. In my view, this post marginalizes human willpower, which I consider one of the strongest forces in the world. Sure you won't be Michael Phelps, but you could say "No matter how hard you try, you will never become a Redwood," and I think the result is the same. Most people don't aspire to be world champion swimmers or extremely tall trees. They want to be successful in their endeavors, and for reasonably well off people in the Western world (which I think describes a large part of this board), there really isn't anything holding you back. Ericsson et al. published a review of this field (expertise) in The Cambridge Handbook of Expertise and Expert Performance (http://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Expertise-Performance-Handbooks-Psychology/dp/0521600812 http://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Expertise-Performance-Handbo...). It's 900 pages but if you can't make it through a serious book then you sure as hell can't succeed in anything that requires real dedication.

einhverfr 14y ago
Also don't underestimate the importance of dreams in inspiring us. Inspiration can be seen as what makes perspiration possible. I have seen people who had significant physical disabilities become inspired and overcome those to a large extent within the domains of one activity or another. Inspiration can make us extraordinary, if we are willing to follow it and put in the effort.

DanielRibeiro 14y ago

Counter point from the VC Mark Suster, from 2009[1]: What Makes an Entrepreneur? Four Letters: JFDI [1] http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2009/11/19/what-makes-an-entrepreneur-four-lettersjfdi/ http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2009/11/19/what-makes-an-...

alexshye 14y ago

IMHO, this blog post only sees a narrow part of the picture, and gets it wrong. To get anything done, we need to (1) have the desire, (2) turn this desire into action, and (3) continue the action and fight through barriers until we achieve what we want. "Just do it" works well as a mantra to turn the desire into action. However, after this step, there is a whole lot more. How much natural ability do you have? How hard are you working? How much competition is there in the area? Are there political, legal, or other barriers in the way? There are many factors determining how far you will go. But, getting started is better than not getting started at all. This is an important step that is often not taken. A more accurate way to put is is that "just do it" is necessary, but not sufficient. I should say that I just wrote a blog post in the "just do it" camp so it may skew my views: http://alexshye.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/the-most-important-lesson-i-ever-learned/ http://alexshye.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/the-most-important-...

dredmorbius 14y ago

Wanking article. I've known several (relatively) late-blooming competitive swimmers who didn't begin training until their teenage years, and a few other athletes who began later than that (20s, 30s, and beyond), reaching national or international class. Gail Roper comes to mind. She was largely passed over for swimming in high school, but came to be one of the most dominant masters and open-water swimmers of all time. A few decades back I had the distinct pleasure of being beat by over 4 minutes by her, which I figured was fine given that she had a 40 year head start. http://www.girlscantwhat.com/meet-gail-roper-the-most-dominant-swimmer-ever/ http://www.girlscantwhat.com/meet-gail-roper-the-most-domina... The "you can do anything" mentality is, of course, false on its face. Athletes, entrepreneurs, and artists, when confronted with a microphone shoved into their face, will say whatever damned fool thing pops into their head, sometimes honestly, often not. If you want to know the real secrets to their success, look at what they do, not what they say. And yes, Phelps is a genetic freak pretty much uniquely suited to swimming. He's also just another human being. And at the end of a race, his muscles and lungs are burning just like anyone else's would be. That said, the accomplishment domain most of us are competing in is "doing stuff", surrounded by others trying to do the same thing. If you want to become accomplished at something, then a mix of innate ability, talent, and hard work will push you somewhere toward the envelope. Perhaps well inside, perhaps outside. A huge part of success, beyond what you can't control (your genes, circumstances, starting at age 7) is to practice efficiency in how you go about reaching your goal. As many hours as a person puts into pursuing a given goal, there are far more hours spent not pursing it. In the tech world, most of us come to realize that beyond a few hours a day, if we're lucky, we're not terribly productive. Athletes may spend a few hours a day engaged in training, but the real pay-off moments may be a few minutes of Tabata intervals, or a set or two of max-effort lifts. Everything else is preparation, support, preventive measures, recovery, or just plain goofing around. What's impressive is how little of the right effort is required to improve your ability. Perhaps not win you a gold medal, but at least to nudge you in that direction. In another context I saw yet another question of the form "how much can I expect to progress if I do X?", and saw the usual responses, some backed with links to substantial research, of what typical and outstanding progress might be. One response came close to what I realized was the right answer: "and if you don't hit some goal rate of progress, are you going to quit?". The answer is: you'll make more progress than if you don't do X. So: pick a reasonable goal, within the realms of physics and biological attainability. Find out if it really suits you (are you doing this for you, for for someone else). Find effective means of attaining your goal. Apply those methods. Monitor your progress. You may find you are able to go further. You may find the goal is out of reach. You may find the goal doesn't interest you. But you tried, and you learned something.

jamesmcn 14y ago

I don't find the world's best athletes inspiring, precisely because they often benefit from quirks of their physiology that I don't share or training that dates back to their single-digit years, or both. I do find athletes in technical sports like sailing, rock climbing, extreme-depth diving inspiring because those sports require a combination of physical ability and problem solving. Sailing is particularly inspiring because even the least able sailor is able to leverage some of the most powerful forces on earth to their advantage. But even Dennis Conner can't sail directly into the wind. Getting back to the original post, I do find it useful as an engineer to attempt impossible things from time to time. Often the impossible is just inside our heads. Sometimes our expectations for our self are too low. But sometimes our egos are too big and we benefit from failing at something impossible too. There's some truth to Phelps' statement. But if you find yourself on an alien planet, don't take off your space suit and start petting the weird snake-creatures.

fluorescentLAMP 14y ago
>because those sports require a combination of physical ability and problem solving I don't understand. Are you saying popular sports like soccer don't require problem solving?
- jamesmcn 14y ago
  I can see how team sports are interesting, I'm just not that into them. They definitely require problem solving.
vacri 14y ago
What problems get solved during an extreme depth dive? How are they more complex than what other athletes face?
- jamesmcn 14y ago
  I'm not a diver, but the overall logistics of how to get exactly the right amount of oxygen into your system is fairly interesting. Rebreather technology has been pushed and developed by the same people who use it.

c00p3r 14y ago

who says so?

tkiley 14y ago

Before my wife and I got married, we had a very intense year-long running argument about this exact topic. She told me I could do anything I wanted to do; I told her that was bullshit. I think this argument may have delayed our marriage significantly. :) Since then, I've noticed that naively optimistic views are relatively common among people who accomplish interesting things. It's almost as if naive optimism is a semi-necessary precursor to remarkable achievement. "You can do anything" is nonsense. It's a crutch. But many people use this crutch to get to really cool places, and I can't help but respect their accomplishments in the end.

einhverfr 14y ago
"You can do anything passably" is not nonsense though. Anyone without a major disability can learn how to write working code. Anyone without a major disability can learn how to play the piano a bit. Anyone can learn how to make a knife, a sword, or a bow, or a pair of shoes. You may never beat Phelps, but you can still learn to swim and have fun doing it. It might even save your life. You may never be world class at most of these things regardless of what you put into it, but you can do it well enough to contribute to happiness in your life and in the end, that's really what matters.
diego 14y ago
I'm a lucky pessimist. I've done really well for my standards, and I'll be the first to admit that luck played a huge role. I don't think being naively optimistic is semi-necessary. It may help in not giving up when things are not going your way. You can be a pessimist and still be persistent as hell. Sometimes you're pleasantly surprised, the rest of the time things just suck as expected :)
jessedhillon 14y ago
I posted an article earlier this week that got no traction, but discusses exactly this. According to the article and the paper it references, people fall predominantly into two populations which are distingquished by their beliefs vis-a-vis achievement. The first population believes, inherently and without evidence, in the supremacy of accomplishing achievements. People in second population have as their primary motive the avoidance of failure. The paper and the article go on to detail the set of post-hoc rationalizations which support these beliefs, and how these were discovered. Article and paper: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/youre-hired/201110/how-do-high-achievers-really-think http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/youre-hired/201110/how-d... HN (non-)discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4307947 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4307947

justin 14y ago

Loser's attitude. Yes, it might be impossible to be the best just by putting in hard work. But hard work and belief that you can accomplish is prerequisite to ever finding out if you can be the best.

ryguytilidie 14y ago

Wow these responses are pretty shocking to me. To me this reads much more like the Steinbeck quote of “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” We end up talking about how amazing it is that these people have accomplished what they have but don't bother to consider that there are others who could not possibly have gotten that because they don't have the advantages the other person did. I'm not super familiar with Phelp's backstory, but I assume he swam a fuckton when he was younger, his parents drove him around the country to events, etc. Many people don't have the time, money and resources to do these things. Telling a poor kid "just do what Michael Phelps did" while ignoring the vast, vast difference between their situations is completely ridiculous and kind of the way our society now works. Not successful because you couldnt afford to go to school because you had to bring home money to help your parents pay the rent? Hearing "just work as hard as I did" from some white republican kid who got a trust fund is basically the same thing you guys are saying everyone should just overcome.

wonderzombie 14y ago
Yep. This is what I took away from it. Let's be honest: the predominant socioeconomic class among hackers and entrepreneurs is a set who have a relatively large set of advantages, many of which are unexamined. This comment thread is a textbook reaction to an accusation that maybe, just maybe, some people have advantages which have directly or indirectly contributed to their success, perhaps as much as any other factor. Some people call this "loser" talk, when I'd say, aggregated across not just our own extremely narrow cross-section of society, it's pretty realistic. As he says, the corollary to "just do it" is that if you didn't succeed, it's because you weren't trying. That may not be what anyone here is suggesting (or it may!), but it's undeniable that there's an entire political party in the US which takes this as an article of faith. If you're wealthy, it's because you earned it; if it's poor, you're not working hard enough. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor%E2%80%93observer_asymmetry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor%E2%80%93observer_asymmetr... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_phenomenon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_phenomenon I do think there is something to the idea of XX% of success is just showing up. It's just that "showing up" elides plenty of complexity and it's not often I see people acknowledge that.

joelrunyon 14y ago

The biggest problem I have with this article is it offers absolutely NO alternative. So, "just do it" is bullshit. Okay, say we buy that point (which I didn't). If that's the case, what are we supposed to do, just sit around and be pissed we can't swim a 50m in a nanosecond? Sure, you're not guaranteed success if you try to do it, but you're sure as hell not going to do ANYTHING at all if you just sit around and complain how everyone has more advantages than you. EVERYONE has a particular set of disadvantages - some people just choose to let theirs limit them more than others.

zzzeek 14y ago

"just do it" is the opposite of the "anything is possible if you put your mind to it" slogan. The "anything is possible" slogan implies that failure is always surmountable, which it obviously isn't. "just do it" means specifically, "so what if you won't be an olympic star, won't lose 200 pounds or win a marathon, won't become a millionaire, even if your attempts fail and you totally suck at something, if you truly are interested in it and have a passion for it, don't discourage yourself, just do it anyway." Life is all about showing up and trying. I played for years with a singer-songwriter who was just awful - tone deaf, fairly dorky, lame songs, guitar strings popping out, pretty bad. We were booed on stage more than once. After a couple of years I couldn't take it anymore and I quit that band. Years later I saw him play and he was totally great, had a fanbase and everything, and had done several tours in europe where he got really polished. He kept at it for years, learned as much as he could from everyone he interacted with, and eventually learned enough to start playing first acceptably, then actually pretty well, within his niche, and today he makes his living full time as a musician. He was simply incapable of was taking to heart all the negative responses he got. They kind of just bounced off of him, and he persevered. When I saw him perform, one of his songs was called "Everything Sucks", and it was specifically about me and the really negative attitude I always had when we used to play together. Fans in the audience cheered for the song and they knew the words. It was sort of a teaching moment about negativity for me. Anyway that's what "just do it" means. It means don't let negativity get in the way of what you feel like doing.

NathanRice 14y ago
Thanks for the unique perspective Mike :) Next time I'm in NYC I definitely need to buy you a beer.

slimemold 14y ago

I don't have a prob with the post, but as someone trying to "just do it," this quote helps me: "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark."

rapind 14y ago

I'm a fan of the Dan Plan. Pretty cool idea. You should check it out: http://thedanplan.com/ http://thedanplan.com/

zobzu 14y ago

Bullshit is beautiful. I like that :)

lancefisher 14y ago

Olympians are the best in the world by definition. Anymore, it takes a combination of talent, hard work, and opportunity to compete at that level. However, almost anyone who really tries can get fit. That takes perseverence, and it is possible.

bialecki 14y ago

Not to commercialize the conversation, but this Nike ad (pretty creative IMO) speaks well to this issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsXRj89cWa0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsXRj89cWa0. The problem with this post is it says nothing about what the alternative is. I guess it's implicit: give up. I'd rather believe I can do it, work like hell and then see where I come up short. But if others would rather sit on the couch explaining why they didn't try, that's cool too.

jakeonthemove 14y ago

Add to that the fact that disadvantages are just as real as the advantages and it's pretty much spot on.

danso 14y ago

The argument that Phelps's success is paritularly reliant on his genetic build is slightly begging the question. His physical features are considered to be ideal for a top swimmer because, well, a top swimmer happens to have them. This does not automatically rule out the possibility that a swimmer with a shorter wingspan could break Phelps' record...because that person may have adapted to that deficiency by improving on a quality that was less important to someone of Phelps' wingspan...in the way that people with a missing limb or sense become stronger in the other ones. This is all just to say that not-trying can't be predicated on "well, I don't share the same qualities as the current record holder"

dinkumthinkum 14y ago

Was this written by a high schooler? I mean, if some freshman said this, most of us would just chock this up to being a smart aleck, sheltered kid with too much time on their hands and thus points the most banal things "You can't swim 100m butterfly in 1ns." Is that supposed to be edifying? Obviously, when people say "anything is possible you just have to work at it" or things like that, they assume the audience is reasonable. They aren't saying a 100 year old in a nursing home is going to be able to play in the NHL competitively by just working hard. What kind of gibberish is this?

deleted 14y ago

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humbyvaldes 14y ago

Jeremy Lin... need I say more

BklynJay 14y ago

Well that blog post was a self-wallowing waste of time.

chubbard 14y ago

Dude it's just a pep talk we tell each other to focus us on executing over psyching ourselves out with over thinking, over strategizing, and noise of others telling us its stupid. Kinda like you're doing now. Apparently you'll need a new customized phrase to help you focus so here it is: Shut up and just do it.

djt 14y ago

I think there is a problem with the algorithm that is used for pages getting to the front page, to be honest. Pretty much every comment on here is about how vapid this post is, but how did it get to the front page???

NathanRice 14y ago

Natural advantages are typically a fairly small boost. In most cases it is possible to modify the way you do things to take advantage of your anatomy and physiology. File this one under "know thyself". Also, don't forget that there are enough people out there that someone with all the natural advantages is going to be working insanely hard. This is why having olympic aspirations is unrealistic; in a realm where a few tenths of a second is the difference between gold and going home empty handed, natural advantages matter. Don't just work hard, think hard, explore all your options, understand what you are trying to do on a deeper level, then attack it as if your life or death depended on the outcome. Failure cannot be an option.

kkotak 14y ago

I think the points here are - 1. Phelps is at the top based on the system of measurement we've agreed upon. No need to worship him. 2. Use him to inspire yoursleves in the endeavours YOU want to undertake, and NOT to become Phelps. 3. Stop feeling bad about yourselves for not being Phelps. 4. Use happiness as your yardstick and not what others think about you. 5. Don't force yourself to immitate others, instead spend time on discovering what you love and allow/push yourself to excel in it. 6. If you do, you'll enjoy watching Phelps and move on with your life. 7. Replace Phelps above with Jobs/Jordan/James Bond... Peace. K