4 ms·

Honest question since I am not exactly of a skill level that really understands what goes on under the hood of popular browsers, but I am baffled as to why peop

by 0xEF 2y ago

Honest question since I am not exactly of a skill level that really understands what goes on under the hood of popular browsers, but I am baffled as to why people are so resistant to just switching to Firefox. Every time this conversation comes up here and elsewhere, you get a huge swath of comments decrying Mozilla or suggesting Brave instead, which is Chrome in a trenchcoat last I checked. I've used all sorts of browsers over the years, and I keep returning to Firefox, at this point being able to configure it for good level of privacy in less than a minute with each install on a new machine. My experience is perhaps skewed, but I view Google and Microsoft as modern enemies of the Web I want to see happen, perhaps having started off the hero, but living long enough to see themselves become the villain. Their products seem actively and aggressively hostile to users and compliant with websites that demand we use them for "best experience" which, by now we should all know means harvesting our data. Again, I have some ignorance here that needs to be rectified, but where are the true apples to apples comparisons of all browsers so that users can use to evaluate which is best? I don't mean just surface level features and marketing woo, but what's happening at the code level that allows the developer or websites we visit to treat us like data thralls. Where are the resources to learn about that in these discussions?

Alifatisk 2y ago
If you enjoy FF, check out Zen browser, it’s gathering attention
- 0xEF 2y ago
  Why, though? I suppose the point of my original comment was to ask that in broader strokes. I'm happy with Firefox and do not see a compelling reason to switch to Zen without an apples-to-apples comparison, which seems like a ridiculously taboo ask in this space. I appreciate your recommendation, I'm just frustrated with the level of discourse I see in these discussions.
insane_dreamer 2y ago
I had issues with Firefox sometimes not showing Google Docs / Sheets (which I use extensively) in other words, would not show any text / values, whereas Edge worked fine. So I switched and didn't go back.
- undersuit 2y ago
  Why would Google bother to make their apps work with a competitor? I used have to install an extension in Firefox to not have Office365 applications throw a fit about the user agent.
  - insane_dreamer 2y ago
    I wouldn't expect them to. But Chrome is such a memory hog that I dumped it long ago.
  - account42 2y ago
    In a non-clown world they would do it because otherwise the anti-trust agencies would break them up. Of course in the corporate utopia we live in they don't get to experience these (dis)incentives.
- quesera 2y ago
  How recently? FWIW I use Firefox with Google Docs/Sheets extensively, with no issues.
jppope 2y ago
The Firefox feature set is limited compared to other browsers and Mozillas business model is literally hush money payments to keep google out of anti-trust litigation. While I hear you that they are a lesser evil, its part of a greater system that is working against consumers I'm a fan of Brave and Arc. The LadyBird announcement is great.
tristor 2y ago
Because, as a society, we like to complain about things but not actually do the necessary effort to change things, even at small scale. It's part of our society-wide drive towards enshittification in every aspect of life. Our society and our experience in the world is made up of millions of small individual choices that happen every day, but we all see ourselves as lacking agency rather than doing something about it. I have more issues with Mozilla management and more reasons to do so than almost anyone on HN, and yet I still use Firefox as my predominant browser, as I have done so since 2003. I worked at Mozilla and then quit over some of my concerns, yet at the same time it's blatantly obvious that Firefox very much empowers you as a user to configure anything you like in `about:config` regardless of what the default settings may be. I predict this will only get worse as the iPad Kids in Gen-Z and Gen-Alpha come of age and accept the soulless shitheap that is modern corporate software without question. You're on the right path, all you can do is make your own individual choice and continue pointing out the sheer laziness and hypocrisy of those who complain but do nothing about it, including in their own lives.
saturn8601 2y ago
>but I am baffled as to why people are so resistant to just switching to Firefox. Somehow Chrome has fried my brain and I can't stand the UX of other browsers. I understand you may be asking "how bad can it be? Its just a browser?" but when I use other things (even Safari) it just doesn't cut the mustard.
- globular-toast 2y ago
  I get it, change is hard, but sometimes you need to do it. How bad would your living situation have to get before you considered moving? I know many people let it get really, really bad... IMO a key to happiness is making changes when you can and resisting the lure of convenience.
  - saturn8601 2y ago
    It depends on what you value. Why expend this effort to switch to a browser that is itself developed by a group of B players and that itself could enshittify any time it wants to? Chrome hasn't gotten to a painful point yet. Maybe once they rollout the V2 block to all users(there are still a lot of enterprise that does not auto upgrade on their own) then we will see more uptick in Firefox or some other alternative.
Aachen 2y ago
My theory for a while now has been that we hold Mozilla to a higher standard and that's why they get flak and lose users over what others get away with. They're supposed to be better, so when they do something you'd expect from Google, people go to... Google? It makes no logical sense but this keeps happening. Or if not Google then some other thing with a questionable business model, or something that depends on Mozilla continuing to maintain Firefox Same goes for, eh, everything else actually: from political parties to non-profits, any time something isn't executed perfectly or some compromise needs to be made, people pull the rug by moving away (votes, donations, spreading the word, whatnot) and we're more in the hands of the orgs we wanted to oppose than before. Bathwater baby sports. We should hold olympics for them
- account42 2y ago
  It's not really a higher standard. Mozilla does more or less the same shit Google does but also lies to us about being privacy friendly on top of it. The scorn is well-earned.
  - Aachen 2y ago
    It's hard to put a number on shittiness, not sure how to objectively look at this at all so idk what to say besides that this seems very much out there to me. They don't have any illegal monopolies (acquired not through being better but through a legit monopoly boosting their other products), don't run the biggest tracking ad firm in the world, don't track you across the web after luring you into logging in in the browser, don't have a closed source version of the browser with more features, don't deprecate functional ad blocking, don't run walled gardens like youtube... it's hard to come up with a single way in which Google is more trustworthy than Mozilla. How can you say they're even close to up to the same shit?

by 0xEF 2y ago

Alifatisk 2y ago

If you enjoy FF, check out Zen browser, it’s gathering attention

0xEF 2y ago
Why, though? I suppose the point of my original comment was to ask that in broader strokes. I'm happy with Firefox and do not see a compelling reason to switch to Zen without an apples-to-apples comparison, which seems like a ridiculously taboo ask in this space. I appreciate your recommendation, I'm just frustrated with the level of discourse I see in these discussions.

insane_dreamer 2y ago

I had issues with Firefox sometimes not showing Google Docs / Sheets (which I use extensively) in other words, would not show any text / values, whereas Edge worked fine. So I switched and didn't go back.

undersuit 2y ago
Why would Google bother to make their apps work with a competitor? I used have to install an extension in Firefox to not have Office365 applications throw a fit about the user agent.
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  I wouldn't expect them to. But Chrome is such a memory hog that I dumped it long ago.
- account42 2y ago
  In a non-clown world they would do it because otherwise the anti-trust agencies would break them up. Of course in the corporate utopia we live in they don't get to experience these (dis)incentives.
quesera 2y ago
How recently? FWIW I use Firefox with Google Docs/Sheets extensively, with no issues.

jppope 2y ago

The Firefox feature set is limited compared to other browsers and Mozillas business model is literally hush money payments to keep google out of anti-trust litigation. While I hear you that they are a lesser evil, its part of a greater system that is working against consumers I'm a fan of Brave and Arc. The LadyBird announcement is great.

tristor 2y ago

Because, as a society, we like to complain about things but not actually do the necessary effort to change things, even at small scale. It's part of our society-wide drive towards enshittification in every aspect of life. Our society and our experience in the world is made up of millions of small individual choices that happen every day, but we all see ourselves as lacking agency rather than doing something about it. I have more issues with Mozilla management and more reasons to do so than almost anyone on HN, and yet I still use Firefox as my predominant browser, as I have done so since 2003. I worked at Mozilla and then quit over some of my concerns, yet at the same time it's blatantly obvious that Firefox very much empowers you as a user to configure anything you like in `about:config` regardless of what the default settings may be. I predict this will only get worse as the iPad Kids in Gen-Z and Gen-Alpha come of age and accept the soulless shitheap that is modern corporate software without question. You're on the right path, all you can do is make your own individual choice and continue pointing out the sheer laziness and hypocrisy of those who complain but do nothing about it, including in their own lives.

saturn8601 2y ago

>but I am baffled as to why people are so resistant to just switching to Firefox. Somehow Chrome has fried my brain and I can't stand the UX of other browsers. I understand you may be asking "how bad can it be? Its just a browser?" but when I use other things (even Safari) it just doesn't cut the mustard.

globular-toast 2y ago
I get it, change is hard, but sometimes you need to do it. How bad would your living situation have to get before you considered moving? I know many people let it get really, really bad... IMO a key to happiness is making changes when you can and resisting the lure of convenience.
- saturn8601 2y ago
  It depends on what you value. Why expend this effort to switch to a browser that is itself developed by a group of B players and that itself could enshittify any time it wants to? Chrome hasn't gotten to a painful point yet. Maybe once they rollout the V2 block to all users(there are still a lot of enterprise that does not auto upgrade on their own) then we will see more uptick in Firefox or some other alternative.

Aachen 2y ago

My theory for a while now has been that we hold Mozilla to a higher standard and that's why they get flak and lose users over what others get away with. They're supposed to be better, so when they do something you'd expect from Google, people go to... Google? It makes no logical sense but this keeps happening. Or if not Google then some other thing with a questionable business model, or something that depends on Mozilla continuing to maintain Firefox Same goes for, eh, everything else actually: from political parties to non-profits, any time something isn't executed perfectly or some compromise needs to be made, people pull the rug by moving away (votes, donations, spreading the word, whatnot) and we're more in the hands of the orgs we wanted to oppose than before. Bathwater baby sports. We should hold olympics for them

account42 2y ago
It's not really a higher standard. Mozilla does more or less the same shit Google does but also lies to us about being privacy friendly on top of it. The scorn is well-earned.
- Aachen 2y ago
  It's hard to put a number on shittiness, not sure how to objectively look at this at all so idk what to say besides that this seems very much out there to me. They don't have any illegal monopolies (acquired not through being better but through a legit monopoly boosting their other products), don't run the biggest tracking ad firm in the world, don't track you across the web after luring you into logging in in the browser, don't have a closed source version of the browser with more features, don't deprecate functional ad blocking, don't run walled gardens like youtube... it's hard to come up with a single way in which Google is more trustworthy than Mozilla. How can you say they're even close to up to the same shit?