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It's the NSA's job to do that domestically, it's just supposed to be firewalled by some hidden kangaroo court that absolutely doesn't do its job: FBI agents hav

It's the NSA's job to do that domestically, it's just supposed to be firewalled by some hidden kangaroo court that absolutely doesn't do its job: FBI agents have been busted stalking women/exs several times. Has been since 9/11. Remember, there's the omnipresent neverending war on terror.

tptacek 2y ago
I mean, sure, stipulate that. But there isn't even a kangaroo court for a service hosted in Europe.
- idrathernot 2y ago
  Europe has plenty of “Kangaroo courts” of their own and partnerships like five eyes encourages authorities to share information. The UK’s NSA equivalent doesn’t need to worry about infringing on an American’s 4th amendment right and technically (if you don’t think about it) the NSA has plausible deniability if the UK shares this information. And vise versa with UK citizens or any western government.
  - jonathanstrange 2y ago
    I think OP meant the EU. The UK is known to be a totalitarian surveillance state and has been less free than the US in that respect for a long time.
    - foldr 2y ago
      “Surveillance state” is debatable. I would disagree, but I’ve had that debate too many times on HN recently, and don’t propose to start it again here. However, to call the UK “totalitarian” is just an abuse of language. The country is not run by a single all-powerful party or dictator. It’s especially odd to use this word and then make a comparison to the US, which (though it is not totalitarian either by any stretch of the imagination) is currently in the midst of an executive power grab, with demands for a level of partisan loyalty from civil servants that remains unthinkable in the UK. I don’t know what your goal is here, but if you want to persuade the average person in the UK to change their minds about the extent to which the government should be able to access surveillance data, it helps not to bundle your arguments together with wild misstatements.
      - jonathanstrange 2y ago
        You're right I shouldn't have used the adjective "totalitarian." It was the kind of mindless parroting of phrases that I dread myself, so thank you for pointing that out! The UK has extremely strict surveillance laws, which are incompatible with EU legislation by now, so it's not a typical example of European countries in that respect. That's all I meant to say.
        foldr 2y ago
        Are you referring to this? https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/13/gchq-data-collection-violated-human-rights-strasbourg-court-rules https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/13/gchq-data-co... If so, that was a judgment about legislation that is no longer current (and wasn’t when the judgment was issued). It may be that current legislation is also incompatible with EU law (IANAL, I’m not arguing that point), but AFAIK there is no court judgment to that effect.
        jonathanstrange 2y ago
        No, I didn't talk about court judgments. Yes, I had various aspects of the Regulation of the Investigatory Powers Act and recent additions to the Investigatory Powers Act in mind. > It may be that current legislation is also incompatible with EU law (IANAL, I’m not arguing that point), but AFAIK there is no court judgment to that effect. Quite possibly but that wasn't my point. The point is that the UK is by far more of a surveillance state than any EU country, at least to my knowledge. UK legislation is not typical for a European country in that respect. People can go to prison in the UK for not handing over an encryption password and the UK has just effectively banned end-to-end encryption (if you put a backdoor in it, it's no longer end-to-end encryption).
        foldr 2y ago
        I’m just responding to the specific claim regarding the incompatibility of current UK legislation with EU law. AFAIK this is not an established fact. It’s an increasingly hypothetical question, though not entirely so. There are EU countries with key disclosure laws. See e.g. France and Ireland on this list: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law
    - Neonlicht 2y ago
      When a famous media personality was assassinated the police managed to catch the killers within hours. Turns out they really DO track every car on the highway- it wasn't just bragging. Every rich country is a surveillance state.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    I don't mean that Europe has worse processes. I mean that the US IC doesn't care about those processes. They can just take whatever they want from European providers.

tptacek 2y ago

I mean, sure, stipulate that. But there isn't even a kangaroo court for a service hosted in Europe.

idrathernot 2y ago
Europe has plenty of “Kangaroo courts” of their own and partnerships like five eyes encourages authorities to share information. The UK’s NSA equivalent doesn’t need to worry about infringing on an American’s 4th amendment right and technically (if you don’t think about it) the NSA has plausible deniability if the UK shares this information. And vise versa with UK citizens or any western government.
- jonathanstrange 2y ago
  I think OP meant the EU. The UK is known to be a totalitarian surveillance state and has been less free than the US in that respect for a long time.
  - foldr 2y ago
    “Surveillance state” is debatable. I would disagree, but I’ve had that debate too many times on HN recently, and don’t propose to start it again here. However, to call the UK “totalitarian” is just an abuse of language. The country is not run by a single all-powerful party or dictator. It’s especially odd to use this word and then make a comparison to the US, which (though it is not totalitarian either by any stretch of the imagination) is currently in the midst of an executive power grab, with demands for a level of partisan loyalty from civil servants that remains unthinkable in the UK. I don’t know what your goal is here, but if you want to persuade the average person in the UK to change their minds about the extent to which the government should be able to access surveillance data, it helps not to bundle your arguments together with wild misstatements.
    - jonathanstrange 2y ago
      You're right I shouldn't have used the adjective "totalitarian." It was the kind of mindless parroting of phrases that I dread myself, so thank you for pointing that out! The UK has extremely strict surveillance laws, which are incompatible with EU legislation by now, so it's not a typical example of European countries in that respect. That's all I meant to say.
      - foldr 2y ago
        Are you referring to this? https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/13/gchq-data-collection-violated-human-rights-strasbourg-court-rules https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/13/gchq-data-co... If so, that was a judgment about legislation that is no longer current (and wasn’t when the judgment was issued). It may be that current legislation is also incompatible with EU law (IANAL, I’m not arguing that point), but AFAIK there is no court judgment to that effect.
        jonathanstrange 2y ago
        No, I didn't talk about court judgments. Yes, I had various aspects of the Regulation of the Investigatory Powers Act and recent additions to the Investigatory Powers Act in mind. > It may be that current legislation is also incompatible with EU law (IANAL, I’m not arguing that point), but AFAIK there is no court judgment to that effect. Quite possibly but that wasn't my point. The point is that the UK is by far more of a surveillance state than any EU country, at least to my knowledge. UK legislation is not typical for a European country in that respect. People can go to prison in the UK for not handing over an encryption password and the UK has just effectively banned end-to-end encryption (if you put a backdoor in it, it's no longer end-to-end encryption).
        foldr 2y ago
        I’m just responding to the specific claim regarding the incompatibility of current UK legislation with EU law. AFAIK this is not an established fact. It’s an increasingly hypothetical question, though not entirely so. There are EU countries with key disclosure laws. See e.g. France and Ireland on this list: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law
  - Neonlicht 2y ago
    When a famous media personality was assassinated the police managed to catch the killers within hours. Turns out they really DO track every car on the highway- it wasn't just bragging. Every rich country is a surveillance state.
- tptacek 2y ago
  I don't mean that Europe has worse processes. I mean that the US IC doesn't care about those processes. They can just take whatever they want from European providers.