32 ms·

They only have license to use the data in order to realize the intent of the user, how much more specific than that can it get?

koakuma-chan 2y ago
And the means of realization are up to Mozilla. In other words they can do whatever they want. If my intent is to type something into the searchbar and get redirected to the search engine website, there is no reason why Mozilla would need to know about this.
- chmod775 2y ago
 > there is no reason why Mozilla would need to know about this. Precisely. That's why it's not covered by the license.
 - koakuma-chan 2y ago
 > That's why it's not covered by the license. It says it is.
 - chmod775 2y ago
 No. It doesn't say that. If you want to claim otherwise, show where it says that and elaborate. This style of "argument" leads nowhere. You're stringing together vague statements and claims, leaving it to the imagination of the reader to tie them into the matter at hand. Maybe you want to do your own dissection of the sentence we are arguing about to make your reading of it clear.
 - qiqitori 2y ago
 I think you're interpreting "as you indicate with your use of Firefox." in some weird charitable way. Law doesn't work like that.
 chmod775 2y ago
 No, I'm not. I'm interpreting it precisely as written using the rules of the English language. Lawyers get paid good money to word them very precisely.
 sirz_benjie 2y ago
 I appreciate your candor and good-faith, benefit-of-the-doubt reading of this clause. However, > Lawyers get paid good money to word them very precisely. This is true, but not in the way you are presenting. The precision is often to provide unilateral freedom under the guise of protection. They will "lawyer" you. "As indicated by you" is a grossly broad phrase. An indication is not an express, enthusiastic consent. (FWIW browsers have a lot of lessons to learn from sexual misconduct training, but I digress). Importantly, you are making an implicit assumption that actually is not protected by the statement. And that is when the intention was shared. If you accept the terms of a Mozilla service elsewhere that indicate you are amenable to, for instance, being served ads in exchange for using the browser a certain way --it can now be argued that the data can be exfiltrated. So, there are two points of failure with your assessment. 1. "Indicated by you" is subjective and Mozilla can solidly argue implicit consent or action 2. The indication need not be contained to the same operation which which the information in question is being sent.
 chmod775 2y ago
 I had to vouch for your comment, which given that yours is the first and only comment responding with something substantive in this entire comment tree is rather... interesting. Thank you for actually engaging in the discussion about the matter at hand using well laid out arguments. > "As indicated by you" is a grossly broad phrase. An indication is not an express, enthusiastic consent. I agree that by itself "indicate" could be interpreted very broadly, however in context it is decidedly less so: "to help you navigate, experience, and interact with online content as you indicate with your use of Firefox". So in order to be licensed use, it has to serve to help the user "navigate, experience, and interact" in the way the user indicated. Also see the steering wheel example here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43200940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43200940 > If you accept the terms of a Mozilla service elsewhere that indicate you are amenable to, for instance, being served ads in exchange for using the browser a certain way --it can now be argued that the data can be exfiltrated. You're right. It absolutely could be argued. As long as they obtain consent/a communication of intent somewhere - for instance by you leaving a "yes, serve me ads" checkbox ticked somewhere - they arguably could now have license to use your data for that. However the point is that something on top of your agreement to the TOS is necessary to make that happen. Just agreeing to the TOS and browsing the web normally doesn't give Mozilla license to do much at all. If I could make a change to the sentence, I would modify it to include "license [..] to the extent necessary to [..]": > When you upload or input information through Firefox, you hereby grant us a nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license to use that information to the extent necessary to help you navigate, experience, and interact with online content as you indicate with your use of Firefox. I don't think that change is strictly... necessary, but it makes it very clear that Mozilla doesn't have license to do all sorts of other unrelated things with your data beyond what is absolutely necessary to realize the user's intent.
 - ykonstant 2y ago
 You have been nitpicking on minutiae while blatantly ignoring the broader context. What is your stance on Mozilla removing the "we don't sell your data" clause as indicated in other comments? You have been latching on wordings and dragging people in clarification contests, but have been carefully avoiding to respond to this not at all vague statement/fact. Here, let me repeat some of the comments you ignored: ndiddy 4 hours ago | unvote | parent | prev | next [–] Given that Mozilla updated their site a couple days ago to remove any wording along the lines of "Firefox will never sell your data to advertisers" when a flag associated with the new Firefox terms of use is enabled (see https://github.com/mozilla/bedrock/commit/d459addab846d8144b https://github.com/mozilla/bedrock/commit/d459addab846d8144b...), I'm not so sure that this is a CYA about standard web browser usage. theturtletalks 4 hours ago | unvote | root | parent | next [–] > {% if switch('firefox-tou') %} Firefox is independent and a part of the not-for-profit Mozilla, which fights for your online rights, keeps corporate powers in check and makes the internet accessible to everyone, everywhere. We believe the internet is for people, not profit. You’re in control over who sees your search and browsing history. All that and exceptional performance too. {% else %} Firefox is independent and a part of the not-for-profit Mozilla, which fights for your online rights, keeps corporate powers in check and makes the internet accessible to everyone, everywhere. We believe the internet is for people, not profit. Unlike other companies, we don’t sell access to your data. You’re in control over who sees your search and browsing history. All that and exceptional performance too. {% endif %} The proof is in the code, great work.
 chmod775 2y ago
 > You have been nitpicking on minutiae while blatantly ignoring the broader context. What is your stance on Mozilla removing the "we don't sell your data" clause as indicated in other comments? Why do you care about my stance? I'm just here trying to correct a misreading of a specific instance of "lawyerspeak" and am not interested in joining some ideological battle where you believe me on the opposing side. It's not my kind of past time. I'm more interested in making sure I fully understand a matter, often by bouncing my interpretations off other people. I could not care less about joining some online brawl and making my side seem right by any means necessary. What you're bringing up has no bearing on this conversation - it doesn't change the meaning of the sentence people were confused about at all. That's why I was ignoring these kinds of replies. I just don't care for it.
inetknght 2y ago
They didn't need a license before. Why should they need one now?
- genewitch 2y ago
  Law degress are expensive
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- chmod775 2y ago
  Do they need to secure a license in such a way? Probably not. Would that fact at all change what the sentence in their TOS means? Nope. Whether or not the sentence needs to be there has no bearing on its meaning.
  - inetknght 2y ago
    That's a wonderful non-answer. It's really showing how much leeway you're giving Mozilla for this overreach. What changed? Why do they need it now?!
    - chmod775 2y ago
      I'm not here to defend or attack Mozilla. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43205587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43205587
akimbostrawman 2y ago
"The intend of the user is to experience the best browsing experience hence we upload and sell all data for training to improve that experience" This is why broad "boilerplate" agreements are unacceptable especially from a self proclaimed savior of online privacy such as Mozilla.

koakuma-chan 2y ago

And the means of realization are up to Mozilla. In other words they can do whatever they want. If my intent is to type something into the searchbar and get redirected to the search engine website, there is no reason why Mozilla would need to know about this.

chmod775 2y ago
> there is no reason why Mozilla would need to know about this. Precisely. That's why it's not covered by the license.
- koakuma-chan 2y ago
 > That's why it's not covered by the license. It says it is.
 - chmod775 2y ago
 No. It doesn't say that. If you want to claim otherwise, show where it says that and elaborate. This style of "argument" leads nowhere. You're stringing together vague statements and claims, leaving it to the imagination of the reader to tie them into the matter at hand. Maybe you want to do your own dissection of the sentence we are arguing about to make your reading of it clear.
 - qiqitori 2y ago
 I think you're interpreting "as you indicate with your use of Firefox." in some weird charitable way. Law doesn't work like that.
 - chmod775 2y ago
 No, I'm not. I'm interpreting it precisely as written using the rules of the English language. Lawyers get paid good money to word them very precisely.
 sirz_benjie 2y ago
 I appreciate your candor and good-faith, benefit-of-the-doubt reading of this clause. However, > Lawyers get paid good money to word them very precisely. This is true, but not in the way you are presenting. The precision is often to provide unilateral freedom under the guise of protection. They will "lawyer" you. "As indicated by you" is a grossly broad phrase. An indication is not an express, enthusiastic consent. (FWIW browsers have a lot of lessons to learn from sexual misconduct training, but I digress). Importantly, you are making an implicit assumption that actually is not protected by the statement. And that is when the intention was shared. If you accept the terms of a Mozilla service elsewhere that indicate you are amenable to, for instance, being served ads in exchange for using the browser a certain way --it can now be argued that the data can be exfiltrated. So, there are two points of failure with your assessment. 1. "Indicated by you" is subjective and Mozilla can solidly argue implicit consent or action 2. The indication need not be contained to the same operation which which the information in question is being sent.
 chmod775 2y ago
 I had to vouch for your comment, which given that yours is the first and only comment responding with something substantive in this entire comment tree is rather... interesting. Thank you for actually engaging in the discussion about the matter at hand using well laid out arguments. > "As indicated by you" is a grossly broad phrase. An indication is not an express, enthusiastic consent. I agree that by itself "indicate" could be interpreted very broadly, however in context it is decidedly less so: "to help you navigate, experience, and interact with online content as you indicate with your use of Firefox". So in order to be licensed use, it has to serve to help the user "navigate, experience, and interact" in the way the user indicated. Also see the steering wheel example here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43200940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43200940 > If you accept the terms of a Mozilla service elsewhere that indicate you are amenable to, for instance, being served ads in exchange for using the browser a certain way --it can now be argued that the data can be exfiltrated. You're right. It absolutely could be argued. As long as they obtain consent/a communication of intent somewhere - for instance by you leaving a "yes, serve me ads" checkbox ticked somewhere - they arguably could now have license to use your data for that. However the point is that something on top of your agreement to the TOS is necessary to make that happen. Just agreeing to the TOS and browsing the web normally doesn't give Mozilla license to do much at all. If I could make a change to the sentence, I would modify it to include "license [..] to the extent necessary to [..]": > When you upload or input information through Firefox, you hereby grant us a nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license to use that information to the extent necessary to help you navigate, experience, and interact with online content as you indicate with your use of Firefox. I don't think that change is strictly... necessary, but it makes it very clear that Mozilla doesn't have license to do all sorts of other unrelated things with your data beyond what is absolutely necessary to realize the user's intent.
 - ykonstant 2y ago
 You have been nitpicking on minutiae while blatantly ignoring the broader context. What is your stance on Mozilla removing the "we don't sell your data" clause as indicated in other comments? You have been latching on wordings and dragging people in clarification contests, but have been carefully avoiding to respond to this not at all vague statement/fact. Here, let me repeat some of the comments you ignored: ndiddy 4 hours ago | unvote | parent | prev | next [–] Given that Mozilla updated their site a couple days ago to remove any wording along the lines of "Firefox will never sell your data to advertisers" when a flag associated with the new Firefox terms of use is enabled (see https://github.com/mozilla/bedrock/commit/d459addab846d8144b https://github.com/mozilla/bedrock/commit/d459addab846d8144b...), I'm not so sure that this is a CYA about standard web browser usage. theturtletalks 4 hours ago | unvote | root | parent | next [–] > {% if switch('firefox-tou') %} Firefox is independent and a part of the not-for-profit Mozilla, which fights for your online rights, keeps corporate powers in check and makes the internet accessible to everyone, everywhere. We believe the internet is for people, not profit. You’re in control over who sees your search and browsing history. All that and exceptional performance too. {% else %} Firefox is independent and a part of the not-for-profit Mozilla, which fights for your online rights, keeps corporate powers in check and makes the internet accessible to everyone, everywhere. We believe the internet is for people, not profit. Unlike other companies, we don’t sell access to your data. You’re in control over who sees your search and browsing history. All that and exceptional performance too. {% endif %} The proof is in the code, great work.
 - chmod775 2y ago
 > You have been nitpicking on minutiae while blatantly ignoring the broader context. What is your stance on Mozilla removing the "we don't sell your data" clause as indicated in other comments? Why do you care about my stance? I'm just here trying to correct a misreading of a specific instance of "lawyerspeak" and am not interested in joining some ideological battle where you believe me on the opposing side. It's not my kind of past time. I'm more interested in making sure I fully understand a matter, often by bouncing my interpretations off other people. I could not care less about joining some online brawl and making my side seem right by any means necessary. What you're bringing up has no bearing on this conversation - it doesn't change the meaning of the sentence people were confused about at all. That's why I was ignoring these kinds of replies. I just don't care for it.

inetknght 2y ago

They didn't need a license before. Why should they need one now?

genewitch 2y ago
Law degress are expensive
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
chmod775 2y ago
Do they need to secure a license in such a way? Probably not. Would that fact at all change what the sentence in their TOS means? Nope. Whether or not the sentence needs to be there has no bearing on its meaning.
- inetknght 2y ago
  That's a wonderful non-answer. It's really showing how much leeway you're giving Mozilla for this overreach. What changed? Why do they need it now?!
  - chmod775 2y ago
    I'm not here to defend or attack Mozilla. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43205587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43205587

akimbostrawman 2y ago

"The intend of the user is to experience the best browsing experience hence we upload and sell all data for training to improve that experience" This is why broad "boilerplate" agreements are unacceptable especially from a self proclaimed savior of online privacy such as Mozilla.