5 ms·

Doc NTIA lead nominee criticizes "woke" and "socialist" fiber broadband subsidy

42 points by walrus01 2y ago

duxup 2y ago
"woke" has no meaning these days. It's just a placeholder for "I don't like it".
- walrus01 2y ago
  "woke" and "socialist" is everything to the left of hunting the homeless for sport, these days.
  - OccamsMirror 2y ago
    I think you mean hunting them for biodiesel, ala the Butterfly Revolution?
  - yes_really 2y ago
    Is this post an instance of that? The following requirements were part of the program [1]. Are you really unable to see how this can fairly be described as "woke"? > In addition, states had to prove that they promoted participation from minority-owned businesses, women-owned businesses, and “other socially or economically disadvantaged individual-owned businesses.” They also had to create a Five-Year Action Plan that required collaborating with unions and “underrepresented communities,” including prisoners, LGBTQI+ individuals, women, and people of color. [1] https://www.thefp.com/p/inside-biden-broadband-boondoggle-trump https://www.thefp.com/p/inside-biden-broadband-boondoggle-tr...
- UltraSane 2y ago
  No, it is a tool for demagogues to demonize things they oppose.
  - imoverclocked 2y ago
    It's a dog whistle for followers of those same demagogues.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- rayiner 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - RangerScience 2y ago
    Would that then mean that the historical practice of red-lining is a “woke” practice, since it injected race and identity preferences into a program?
    - rayiner 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - wredcoll 2y ago
        Please don't lie like that here. There are other places on the internet for that.
        juanani 2y ago
        [dead]
        wruza 2y ago
        Opinions can’t be lies, and from what the internet tries to sneak into my feeds, this resonates pretty well (I mostly get it from the gamers perspective). Ignoring this or calling it a lie creates a tension that no amount of actual good will can overcome.
        unclebucknasty 2y ago
        >Opinions can’t be lies But, they can be based on false info or deliberately misleading reasoning, or stated in bad faith with the intent to deceive.
        intended 2y ago
        There’s no need for good will. If I have to break into the difference between disingenuous, malign, and wrong, I’m going to waste time and calories on a rhetorical approach aimed at wasting time and calories.
- hooverd 2y ago
  people say woke with a hard-r nowadays
  - Vaslo 2y ago
    Nah, people with woke are just the winners right now, and you can’t stand it.
- yes_really 2y ago
  No, woke is well understood to be about identity politics. The following requirements were part of the program [1]. Are you really unable to see how this can be described as "woke"? > In addition, states had to prove that they promoted participation from minority-owned businesses, women-owned businesses, and “other socially or economically disadvantaged individual-owned businesses.” They also had to create a Five-Year Action Plan that required collaborating with unions and “underrepresented communities,” including prisoners, LGBTQI+ individuals, women, and people of color. [1] https://www.thefp.com/p/inside-biden-broadband-boondoggle-trump https://www.thefp.com/p/inside-biden-broadband-boondoggle-tr...
  - walrus01 2y ago
    You seem so concerned about correcting other people on your personal definition of "woke" that you've copied and pasted the exact same comment into two separate places in this thread.
    - yes_really 2y ago
      No, It's not my "personal definition" of woke. I wrote "woke is well understood to be about identity politics.". Do you deny that "woke" is well understood to be about identity politics? It is hard to believe you were not aware of how the term is used. I believe you are being deliberately obtuse.
      - walrus01 2y ago
        "woke" encompasses far more than that, it's about being aware of the past 500 years of global history, systematic systems of oppression, racism, discrimination, religious wars, a reasonable understanding of the root causes of the major wars of the past 100 years and their aftermath, various genocides, pogroms, assassinations, coup d'etat, economic disparities between wealthy nations and developing nations, global patterns of push and pull factors for immigration, the role that major international organizations like the UN, NATO, EU play in global politics, culturally specific implementations and practices of non-binary and non-heterosexual gender norms in cultures very alien to western european cultural backgrounds, I could go on for quite some time. now in its current implementation as a derogatory term by a certain political sect in the usa, "woke" has come to mean "anything we dislike which is vaguely left of center that encompasses the well known tenets of progressive/liberal/leftist politics".
efnx 2y ago
Kinda sounds like they want to be able to give more money to the muskrat through subsidies for starlink instead of focusing on fibre (fibre would be a better investment), while also being able to charge whatever they want, while also “owning the libs”.
- nitwit005 2y ago
  It's possible, but more likely it's the issue of wireless providers who have tried to make dubious claims about speeds and coverage to claim government funds: https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2023-02-16/fcc-investigates-broadband-providers-coverage-claims https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2023-02-16/fcc-invest...
  - esseph 2y ago
    I think you're just throwing a link out without understanding the topic in the title. It's talking about opening up scoring system for BEAD to let the best technology for the market win based on features and costs. Right now it is heavily weighted for fiber, and is done in a way that wouldn't require 25% matching funds for something like the middle of Wyoming, Montana, Alaska, etc. But if you want to fiber up, say, Alaska - you're going to need a lot more money than $45Bn for just /that/ state alone. That's a lot of tax dollars better spent elsewhere when other sufficient technologies exist.
    - jamal-kumar 2y ago
      Honestly she could have done better putting it in those terms rather than attacking it the way she did but you nailed it. It's really expensive to cover large and disparate geographic areas with that kind of thing. There's definitely examples of smaller companies emerging and wiring up their entire rural towns with fibre optic, although the one I'm most aware of kind of foundered when the town ended up selling it to the big phone company after they couldn't pay something like 18 million in debt which gives an idea of scale and challenges for getting lasers to homes in just one town [1]. And on the other hand I've lived in much smaller third world countries where you can get FTTH pretty much everywhere even in small towns, mostly doable because the area to cover is just super small. [1] https://www.thealbertan.com/olds-news/town-of-olds-selling-its-fiibre-optic-internet-phone-tv-service-to-telus-9608636 https://www.thealbertan.com/olds-news/town-of-olds-selling-i...
henglihong-js 2y ago
[dead]
rhinoceraptor 2y ago
I guess "equity", meaning running fiber to rural areas, even if they usually lean red, means "woke"? Or is it that "woke" now just means any internet infrastructure that isn't Starlink?
- cozzyd 2y ago
  Any ISP leader too timid to do a salute is too woke
- threeseed 2y ago
  Yes she specifically called out the fact that they were favouring fiber. The act defines an "underserved area" as having less than 100/20 speeds. Which Starlink doesn't meet: https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1400-28829-70 https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1400-28829-70
- rayiner 2y ago
  No, that’s not what it means: https://www.thefp.com/p/inside-biden-broadband-boondoggle-trump https://www.thefp.com/p/inside-biden-broadband-boondoggle-tr... > In addition, states had to prove that they promoted participation from minority-owned businesses, women-owned businesses, and “other socially or economically disadvantaged individual-owned businesses.” They also had to create a Five-Year Action Plan that required collaborating with unions and “underrepresented communities,” including prisoners, LGBTQI+ individuals, women, and people of color. If you support incorporating race and identity group preferences into government infrastructure projects, just own that instead of obfuscating.
  - hooverd 2y ago
    Very little proof that woke did this vs. Carr just saying so. it sounds like most holdup was at the state level.
    - rayiner 2y ago
      Building infrastructure in this country is already nearly impossible, without adding another whole dimension of things that can be used to bog down and litigate projects to death. I’ve got 10-gig fiber to my house and drive an SUV, I don’t care. The people who should be most upset about this stuff are the folks who want government to facilitate building fiber, trains, etc.
tbrownaw 2y ago
> … all kinds of left-wing priorities on the program that just divert resources away from the overall goal of closing broadband gaps. This is going to make the program less cost effective, and it's going to undermine its goals.” So it's complaints about the details rather than the general idea. . Also, that title doesn't match the article title.
yesbut 2y ago
Sounds like these people are only interested in awaking the spectre haunting thr US.
- achierius 2y ago
  Critical support to Comrade Musk in his mission to destroy the West
  - walrus01 2y ago
    https://theonion.com/fbi-uncovers-al-qaeda-plot-to-just-sit-back-and-enjoy-c-1819576375/ https://theonion.com/fbi-uncovers-al-qaeda-plot-to-just-sit-...
  - mindslight 2y ago
    "King" Krasnov and Honored Court Jester Muskow.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
pasttense01 2y ago
Generally it's economic to install broadband in urban areas, but not in many rural areas--so the rural areas need to be subsidized--and rural areas are the least likely to be woke and/or socialist.
- scarab92 2y ago
  Why should rural areas be subsidised? No one is making you chose to live there, plus you get cost of living savings from being there rather than in expensive urban real estate. Also, Starlink isn’t all that much more expensive than fibre.
  - walrus01 2y ago
    > Why should rural areas be subsidised? > No one is making you chose to live there, plus you get cost of living savings from being there rather than in expensive urban real estate This same argument could have been, and was used against funding for rural electrification and power generation dam construction during the depression and new deal era 90 years ago, which is one of the reasons why deepest Appalachia and much of the rural mountain western states now have grid electricity outside major cities.
- protocolture 2y ago
  IIRC Fish Lake Township in the US with 900 residents was wired up before BEAD. And WISPs can be good too, its just a matter of cowboy lottery.
protocolture 2y ago
I have been seeing lots of seppostani ISP people railing against BEAD. But like, if I had to choose between a keynesianish narrow targeting of government funds to reward local ISP's, and the Australian style big government telco monopoly it would be no contest. I think BEAD opponents need to think strategically. If they get rid of BEAD, and fail to meet broadband demand, what will the next democrat government do? Assuming there is one.
kmeisthax 2y ago
Fiber is woke now
bastard_op 2y ago
Last time Trump installed Ajit Pai, the ultimate telecomm shill into that job, and you know the telecoms all wrote checks to pay him to remove all this hurt to their bottom line. Junk fees and overcharges for everyone again!

42 points by walrus01 2y ago

duxup 2y ago

"woke" has no meaning these days. It's just a placeholder for "I don't like it".

walrus01 2y ago
"woke" and "socialist" is everything to the left of hunting the homeless for sport, these days.
- OccamsMirror 2y ago
  I think you mean hunting them for biodiesel, ala the Butterfly Revolution?
- yes_really 2y ago
  Is this post an instance of that? The following requirements were part of the program [1]. Are you really unable to see how this can fairly be described as "woke"? > In addition, states had to prove that they promoted participation from minority-owned businesses, women-owned businesses, and “other socially or economically disadvantaged individual-owned businesses.” They also had to create a Five-Year Action Plan that required collaborating with unions and “underrepresented communities,” including prisoners, LGBTQI+ individuals, women, and people of color. [1] https://www.thefp.com/p/inside-biden-broadband-boondoggle-trump https://www.thefp.com/p/inside-biden-broadband-boondoggle-tr...
UltraSane 2y ago
No, it is a tool for demagogues to demonize things they oppose.
- imoverclocked 2y ago
  It's a dog whistle for followers of those same demagogues.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
rayiner 2y ago
[flagged]
- RangerScience 2y ago
  Would that then mean that the historical practice of red-lining is a “woke” practice, since it injected race and identity preferences into a program?
  - rayiner 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - wredcoll 2y ago
      Please don't lie like that here. There are other places on the internet for that.
      - juanani 2y ago
        [dead]
      - wruza 2y ago
        Opinions can’t be lies, and from what the internet tries to sneak into my feeds, this resonates pretty well (I mostly get it from the gamers perspective). Ignoring this or calling it a lie creates a tension that no amount of actual good will can overcome.
        unclebucknasty 2y ago
        >Opinions can’t be lies But, they can be based on false info or deliberately misleading reasoning, or stated in bad faith with the intent to deceive.
        intended 2y ago
        There’s no need for good will. If I have to break into the difference between disingenuous, malign, and wrong, I’m going to waste time and calories on a rhetorical approach aimed at wasting time and calories.
hooverd 2y ago
people say woke with a hard-r nowadays
- Vaslo 2y ago
  Nah, people with woke are just the winners right now, and you can’t stand it.
yes_really 2y ago
No, woke is well understood to be about identity politics. The following requirements were part of the program [1]. Are you really unable to see how this can be described as "woke"? > In addition, states had to prove that they promoted participation from minority-owned businesses, women-owned businesses, and “other socially or economically disadvantaged individual-owned businesses.” They also had to create a Five-Year Action Plan that required collaborating with unions and “underrepresented communities,” including prisoners, LGBTQI+ individuals, women, and people of color. [1] https://www.thefp.com/p/inside-biden-broadband-boondoggle-trump https://www.thefp.com/p/inside-biden-broadband-boondoggle-tr...
- walrus01 2y ago
  You seem so concerned about correcting other people on your personal definition of "woke" that you've copied and pasted the exact same comment into two separate places in this thread.
  - yes_really 2y ago
    No, It's not my "personal definition" of woke. I wrote "woke is well understood to be about identity politics.". Do you deny that "woke" is well understood to be about identity politics? It is hard to believe you were not aware of how the term is used. I believe you are being deliberately obtuse.
    - walrus01 2y ago
      "woke" encompasses far more than that, it's about being aware of the past 500 years of global history, systematic systems of oppression, racism, discrimination, religious wars, a reasonable understanding of the root causes of the major wars of the past 100 years and their aftermath, various genocides, pogroms, assassinations, coup d'etat, economic disparities between wealthy nations and developing nations, global patterns of push and pull factors for immigration, the role that major international organizations like the UN, NATO, EU play in global politics, culturally specific implementations and practices of non-binary and non-heterosexual gender norms in cultures very alien to western european cultural backgrounds, I could go on for quite some time. now in its current implementation as a derogatory term by a certain political sect in the usa, "woke" has come to mean "anything we dislike which is vaguely left of center that encompasses the well known tenets of progressive/liberal/leftist politics".

efnx 2y ago

Kinda sounds like they want to be able to give more money to the muskrat through subsidies for starlink instead of focusing on fibre (fibre would be a better investment), while also being able to charge whatever they want, while also “owning the libs”.

nitwit005 2y ago
It's possible, but more likely it's the issue of wireless providers who have tried to make dubious claims about speeds and coverage to claim government funds: https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2023-02-16/fcc-investigates-broadband-providers-coverage-claims https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2023-02-16/fcc-invest...
- esseph 2y ago
  I think you're just throwing a link out without understanding the topic in the title. It's talking about opening up scoring system for BEAD to let the best technology for the market win based on features and costs. Right now it is heavily weighted for fiber, and is done in a way that wouldn't require 25% matching funds for something like the middle of Wyoming, Montana, Alaska, etc. But if you want to fiber up, say, Alaska - you're going to need a lot more money than $45Bn for just /that/ state alone. That's a lot of tax dollars better spent elsewhere when other sufficient technologies exist.
  - jamal-kumar 2y ago
    Honestly she could have done better putting it in those terms rather than attacking it the way she did but you nailed it. It's really expensive to cover large and disparate geographic areas with that kind of thing. There's definitely examples of smaller companies emerging and wiring up their entire rural towns with fibre optic, although the one I'm most aware of kind of foundered when the town ended up selling it to the big phone company after they couldn't pay something like 18 million in debt which gives an idea of scale and challenges for getting lasers to homes in just one town [1]. And on the other hand I've lived in much smaller third world countries where you can get FTTH pretty much everywhere even in small towns, mostly doable because the area to cover is just super small. [1] https://www.thealbertan.com/olds-news/town-of-olds-selling-its-fiibre-optic-internet-phone-tv-service-to-telus-9608636 https://www.thealbertan.com/olds-news/town-of-olds-selling-i...

henglihong-js 2y ago

[dead]

rhinoceraptor 2y ago

I guess "equity", meaning running fiber to rural areas, even if they usually lean red, means "woke"? Or is it that "woke" now just means any internet infrastructure that isn't Starlink?

cozzyd 2y ago
Any ISP leader too timid to do a salute is too woke
threeseed 2y ago
Yes she specifically called out the fact that they were favouring fiber. The act defines an "underserved area" as having less than 100/20 speeds. Which Starlink doesn't meet: https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1400-28829-70 https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1400-28829-70
rayiner 2y ago
No, that’s not what it means: https://www.thefp.com/p/inside-biden-broadband-boondoggle-trump https://www.thefp.com/p/inside-biden-broadband-boondoggle-tr... > In addition, states had to prove that they promoted participation from minority-owned businesses, women-owned businesses, and “other socially or economically disadvantaged individual-owned businesses.” They also had to create a Five-Year Action Plan that required collaborating with unions and “underrepresented communities,” including prisoners, LGBTQI+ individuals, women, and people of color. If you support incorporating race and identity group preferences into government infrastructure projects, just own that instead of obfuscating.
- hooverd 2y ago
  Very little proof that woke did this vs. Carr just saying so. it sounds like most holdup was at the state level.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    Building infrastructure in this country is already nearly impossible, without adding another whole dimension of things that can be used to bog down and litigate projects to death. I’ve got 10-gig fiber to my house and drive an SUV, I don’t care. The people who should be most upset about this stuff are the folks who want government to facilitate building fiber, trains, etc.

tbrownaw 2y ago

> … all kinds of left-wing priorities on the program that just divert resources away from the overall goal of closing broadband gaps. This is going to make the program less cost effective, and it's going to undermine its goals.” So it's complaints about the details rather than the general idea. . Also, that title doesn't match the article title.

yesbut 2y ago

Sounds like these people are only interested in awaking the spectre haunting thr US.

achierius 2y ago
Critical support to Comrade Musk in his mission to destroy the West
- walrus01 2y ago
  https://theonion.com/fbi-uncovers-al-qaeda-plot-to-just-sit-back-and-enjoy-c-1819576375/ https://theonion.com/fbi-uncovers-al-qaeda-plot-to-just-sit-...
- mindslight 2y ago
  "King" Krasnov and Honored Court Jester Muskow.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

pasttense01 2y ago

Generally it's economic to install broadband in urban areas, but not in many rural areas--so the rural areas need to be subsidized--and rural areas are the least likely to be woke and/or socialist.

scarab92 2y ago
Why should rural areas be subsidised? No one is making you chose to live there, plus you get cost of living savings from being there rather than in expensive urban real estate. Also, Starlink isn’t all that much more expensive than fibre.
- walrus01 2y ago
  > Why should rural areas be subsidised? > No one is making you chose to live there, plus you get cost of living savings from being there rather than in expensive urban real estate This same argument could have been, and was used against funding for rural electrification and power generation dam construction during the depression and new deal era 90 years ago, which is one of the reasons why deepest Appalachia and much of the rural mountain western states now have grid electricity outside major cities.
protocolture 2y ago
IIRC Fish Lake Township in the US with 900 residents was wired up before BEAD. And WISPs can be good too, its just a matter of cowboy lottery.

protocolture 2y ago

I have been seeing lots of seppostani ISP people railing against BEAD. But like, if I had to choose between a keynesianish narrow targeting of government funds to reward local ISP's, and the Australian style big government telco monopoly it would be no contest. I think BEAD opponents need to think strategically. If they get rid of BEAD, and fail to meet broadband demand, what will the next democrat government do? Assuming there is one.

kmeisthax 2y ago

Fiber is woke now

bastard_op 2y ago

Last time Trump installed Ajit Pai, the ultimate telecomm shill into that job, and you know the telecoms all wrote checks to pay him to remove all this hurt to their bottom line. Junk fees and overcharges for everyone again!