4 ms·

Since Mozilla removed all mention of not selling my data in a recent PR and seems hellbent on an ad-based future, I've deleted my Firefox account and moved to L

Since Mozilla removed all mention of not selling my data in a recent PR and seems hellbent on an ad-based future, I've deleted my Firefox account and moved to Librewolf across my devices, and I'll encourage everyone I know to do the same. It's a sad end to my literal decades of support for them.

torben-friis 2y ago
I'm not familiar with this change, do you have a link?
- hellcow 2y ago
  The phrase "we don’t sell access to your data" has been removed, gated behind a feature flag connected to this TOS change. Their FAQ was updated to remove the "Does Firefox sell your personal data? Nope. Never have, never will. And we protect you from many of the advertisers who do. Firefox products are designed to protect your privacy. That’s a promise" as well. [0] Combined with their blog posts from the CEO saying "we also need to take steps to diversify: investing in privacy-respecting advertising to grow new revenue in the near term." [1] [0] https://github.com/mozilla/bedrock/commit/d459addab846d8144b61939b7f4310eb80c5470e https://github.com/mozilla/bedrock/commit/d459addab846d8144b... [1] https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/mozilla-leadership-growth-planning-updates/ https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/mozilla-leadership-growt...
  - ziddoap 2y ago
    >Mozilla doesn’t sell data about you, and we don’t buy data about you. Is still present on https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/faq/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/faq/
    - ilyagr 2y ago
      I'm curious whether it changed in the last two hours, but now it sounds a lot less clear. Also, it sheds some light of how people at Mozilla currently think about it (so much so that I'm guessing the text will change again): > Mozilla doesn’t sell data about you (in the way that most people think about “selling data“), and we don’t buy data about you. Since we strive for transparency, and the LEGAL definition of “sale of data“ is extremely broad in some places, we’ve had to step back from making the definitive statements you know and love. We still put a lot of work into making sure that the data that we share with our partners (which we need to do to make Firefox commercially viable) is stripped of any identifying information, or shared only in the aggregate, or is put through our privacy preserving technologies (like OHTTP). *Update:* Here's the version from Feb 6 that says exactly what the parent comment posted: https://web.archive.org/web/20250206184553/https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/faq/ https://web.archive.org/web/20250206184553/https://www.mozil...
      - ziddoap 2y ago
        Indeed, it was updated from the time I posted my first reply and now. At the time I copy/pasted, the answer was a single line (as shown in your archive link).
        ilyagr 2y ago
        Good to know, thanks! I'd be mildly surprised if the current version remains unchanged for a long time. It raises the question of "how do I determine whether I'm one of the 'most people' who wouldn't think of you as selling my data", and I doubt they'll want to answer that. I wish there was a way to tell the Wayback Machine to do a snapshot for historical preservation.
        ziddoap 2y ago
        >I wish there was a way to tell the Wayback Machine to do a snapshot for historical preservation. You can, and I just submitted the https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/faq/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/faq/ URL. At the top of the page, click "Web". On the right-hand side of the menu that appears, you'll see: "Save Page Now Capture a web page as it appears now for use as a trusted citation in the future." And a spot to enter the URL. Resulting snapshot for today: https://web.archive.org/web/20250227182726/https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/faq/ https://web.archive.org/web/20250227182726/https://www.mozil...
        ilyagr 2y ago
        Nice, thank you again!
mediumsmart 2y ago
I use librewolf with privacy badger on macos (best browser) except when I have to run on battery - then its Orion (also the best browser).
0x2a 2y ago
I use a Firefox fork too, but do you think it would continue to be around without Mozilla? It's sad to see them squander an opportunity to do good work. Mozilla should have gone all-in on ethics/privacy in contrast to tech giants and made an offering like Proton. Or gone with the Wikipedia donate model like another commenter said. Any compromise on their values is insane mismanagement, that was their whole brand.
- johnea 2y ago
  The overwhelming majority of Mozilla foundation's revenue is from Goggle corps. For making goggle the default search engine. So they aren't really "in contrast to tech giants" in any way.
- hellcow 2y ago
  I don’t know. I’m hoping that after their attempts at building an ad network fail, they pivot back to developing a browser by focusing on features their users actually want. Or maybe by the time Mozilla fails another alternative springs up, like Ladybird. To your point, cloning Proton is such an obvious path forward to generate revenue while staying true to their values. Even selling a Firefox Pro with an annual fee offering some developer-specific or power-user features would be great.
  - Fnoord 2y ago
    They tried that with Mozilla VPN. It used Mullvad under the hood (a very good Swedish VPN provider), was tailored towards USA, and I could not use a config manually. Which meant I paid a year for nothing. Not the same as donation, but still. Together with certain other services, like Password manager and Firefox Accounts, they could indeed go with your suggestion. However, I really do not want my EU data under a US business or non-profit. I want my data under EU laws, or European at least (Norway, Switzerland are also OK). IMO, Mozilla should team up with Kagi. They have the numbers of users, and Kagi has the excellent product.
- kennysoona 2y ago
  > I use a Firefox fork too If not LibreWolf then what? The rest seem out of date or worse than Firefox in some way.
lucyjojo 2y ago
been using mozilla since i was a teenager and now i'm an old family man... this whole thing and recent change goes contrary to what i thought they were about. i'm done with them at this point. the migration will be painful...
jeroenhd 2y ago
Does librewolf maintain their own browser engine? I thought it was just a repackaged Firefox fork? As for your Firefox account, you could consider hosting your own sync server. The documentation for it is of varying quality, but you can keep your data off Mozilla's servers without sacrificing some pretty useful functionality.

torben-friis 2y ago

I'm not familiar with this change, do you have a link?

hellcow 2y ago
The phrase "we don’t sell access to your data" has been removed, gated behind a feature flag connected to this TOS change. Their FAQ was updated to remove the "Does Firefox sell your personal data? Nope. Never have, never will. And we protect you from many of the advertisers who do. Firefox products are designed to protect your privacy. That’s a promise" as well. [0] Combined with their blog posts from the CEO saying "we also need to take steps to diversify: investing in privacy-respecting advertising to grow new revenue in the near term." [1] [0] https://github.com/mozilla/bedrock/commit/d459addab846d8144b61939b7f4310eb80c5470e https://github.com/mozilla/bedrock/commit/d459addab846d8144b... [1] https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/mozilla-leadership-growth-planning-updates/ https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/mozilla-leadership-growt...
- ziddoap 2y ago
  >Mozilla doesn’t sell data about you, and we don’t buy data about you. Is still present on https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/faq/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/faq/
  - ilyagr 2y ago
    I'm curious whether it changed in the last two hours, but now it sounds a lot less clear. Also, it sheds some light of how people at Mozilla currently think about it (so much so that I'm guessing the text will change again): > Mozilla doesn’t sell data about you (in the way that most people think about “selling data“), and we don’t buy data about you. Since we strive for transparency, and the LEGAL definition of “sale of data“ is extremely broad in some places, we’ve had to step back from making the definitive statements you know and love. We still put a lot of work into making sure that the data that we share with our partners (which we need to do to make Firefox commercially viable) is stripped of any identifying information, or shared only in the aggregate, or is put through our privacy preserving technologies (like OHTTP). *Update:* Here's the version from Feb 6 that says exactly what the parent comment posted: https://web.archive.org/web/20250206184553/https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/faq/ https://web.archive.org/web/20250206184553/https://www.mozil...
    - ziddoap 2y ago
      Indeed, it was updated from the time I posted my first reply and now. At the time I copy/pasted, the answer was a single line (as shown in your archive link).
      - ilyagr 2y ago
        Good to know, thanks! I'd be mildly surprised if the current version remains unchanged for a long time. It raises the question of "how do I determine whether I'm one of the 'most people' who wouldn't think of you as selling my data", and I doubt they'll want to answer that. I wish there was a way to tell the Wayback Machine to do a snapshot for historical preservation.
        ziddoap 2y ago
        >I wish there was a way to tell the Wayback Machine to do a snapshot for historical preservation. You can, and I just submitted the https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/faq/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/faq/ URL. At the top of the page, click "Web". On the right-hand side of the menu that appears, you'll see: "Save Page Now Capture a web page as it appears now for use as a trusted citation in the future." And a spot to enter the URL. Resulting snapshot for today: https://web.archive.org/web/20250227182726/https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/faq/ https://web.archive.org/web/20250227182726/https://www.mozil...
        ilyagr 2y ago
        Nice, thank you again!

mediumsmart 2y ago

I use librewolf with privacy badger on macos (best browser) except when I have to run on battery - then its Orion (also the best browser).

0x2a 2y ago

I use a Firefox fork too, but do you think it would continue to be around without Mozilla? It's sad to see them squander an opportunity to do good work. Mozilla should have gone all-in on ethics/privacy in contrast to tech giants and made an offering like Proton. Or gone with the Wikipedia donate model like another commenter said. Any compromise on their values is insane mismanagement, that was their whole brand.

johnea 2y ago
The overwhelming majority of Mozilla foundation's revenue is from Goggle corps. For making goggle the default search engine. So they aren't really "in contrast to tech giants" in any way.
hellcow 2y ago
I don’t know. I’m hoping that after their attempts at building an ad network fail, they pivot back to developing a browser by focusing on features their users actually want. Or maybe by the time Mozilla fails another alternative springs up, like Ladybird. To your point, cloning Proton is such an obvious path forward to generate revenue while staying true to their values. Even selling a Firefox Pro with an annual fee offering some developer-specific or power-user features would be great.
- Fnoord 2y ago
  They tried that with Mozilla VPN. It used Mullvad under the hood (a very good Swedish VPN provider), was tailored towards USA, and I could not use a config manually. Which meant I paid a year for nothing. Not the same as donation, but still. Together with certain other services, like Password manager and Firefox Accounts, they could indeed go with your suggestion. However, I really do not want my EU data under a US business or non-profit. I want my data under EU laws, or European at least (Norway, Switzerland are also OK). IMO, Mozilla should team up with Kagi. They have the numbers of users, and Kagi has the excellent product.
kennysoona 2y ago
> I use a Firefox fork too If not LibreWolf then what? The rest seem out of date or worse than Firefox in some way.

lucyjojo 2y ago

been using mozilla since i was a teenager and now i'm an old family man... this whole thing and recent change goes contrary to what i thought they were about. i'm done with them at this point. the migration will be painful...

jeroenhd 2y ago

Does librewolf maintain their own browser engine? I thought it was just a repackaged Firefox fork? As for your Firefox account, you could consider hosting your own sync server. The documentation for it is of varying quality, but you can keep your data off Mozilla's servers without sacrificing some pretty useful functionality.