4 ms·

It takes massive cultural change. It angers people to hear it, but societies with high wages and particularly those where women can work have awful birth rates

It takes massive cultural change. It angers people to hear it, but societies with high wages and particularly those where women can work have awful birth rates. Education correlates to lower birth rates. The ones with high birth rates are the ones where people barely scrape by, the ones where workers have no rights, the ones where people focus on getting by today and not plan for a poolside retirement 40 years down the road, the ones where menstruating women are considered filthy and isolated for a week from the men, the ones where having loads of kids makes important figures in your religion happy and there's nothing that matters in life beyond that. You need to change your country to have one (or many) of these conditions to induce high birth rates. The birth rates in Japan are really no different from any other first world country. The west simply has a massive amount of immigrants to supplant the losses of the barely reproducing locals. Those immigrants might have 2 or 3 kids, and maybe their kids will have 2 kids. Then it reverts back to the mean of 1.2 kids basically everywhere. There's lots of talk on reddit and other communities that if every country were like (XYZ country they consider paradise) and gave loads of vacation, paid high wages, gave everyone free college and housing, etc that the problem would disappear overnight. But you look at the birth rates of the locals in those countries, and it's always 1.2-1.4. Mass immigration is a band aid. It makes governments and corporations hope, pray, and potentially strong-arm other countries into being underdeveloped and oppressive in a way that causes high birth rates, and makes the people who live there desperate to find better lives elsewhere. People aren't mass immigrating to first world countries because they decided on a whim that they want to work there, like rich westerners do when they decide they want to retire in SE Asia and be pampered the rest of their life. They move to first world countries because their home country is not a place that makes them happy to live in.

reedf1 2y ago
The article makes a strong case that it is not due to women working; as Japan has some of the lowest female labour market participation in the developed world.
piva00 2y ago
East Asian cultures like Japan and South Korea are extremely chauvinistic when compared to Western societies. Gender roles are still strong and women are expected to be a "good wife" taking care of kids, house chores, etc. It's no surprise that educated ones will reject that, as a sibling comment mentions, Japanese women labour participation is lower than in Western societies.
- forgotoldacc 2y ago
  One thing that's not unusual in Japan is for women here to want to be housewives. A lot of people just don't like office politics and commuting and there's nothing wrong with that. The idea that educated people MUST work at a company feels kind of antiquated, honestly. Normalize education for the sake of simply having educated people in society.
TheSpiceIsLife 2y ago
> the ones where menstruating women are considered filthy and isolated for a week from the men I think you’re massively overstating that, and probably misinterpreting what the Quran actually says. English translation, which probably misses some of the nuance of the original text: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstruation_in_Islam https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstruation_in_Islam And they ask you about menstruation. Say: It is a harm (painful situation); therefore keep aloof from the women during the menstrual discharge and do not go near them until they have become clean; then when they have cleansed themselves, go in to them as Allah has commanded you; surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves. For anyone who’s lived with women who have a hard time of menstruation, that’s not entirely unreasonable advice, and it indicates women are given less strict rules to follow due to the difficulties they’ve to contend with as women, which also seems not entirely unreasonable. There are other versus that deal with the treatment of women specifically, and those versus also have at least some not entirely unreasonable advice, especially given the context of a world with less advanced medicine, I mean historically, as did we all, and the idea that menstruating / pregnant women ought be given additional consideration.
- Aloisius 2y ago
  You're assuming they were referring to Islam. Women are isolated from men during menstruation, to various degrees from limited touching to full exile to menstruation huts, in other religions and cultures.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 2y ago
    One quarter of the worlds population is Islamic, and it is typically what people complain about.
- forgotoldacc 2y ago
  I was referring to Nepal where women were, until recently, exiled during menstruation. And birth rates there have also fallen with modernization. [1] But it is interesting that you immediately jump to defend Islam in saying it's misinterpreting it, then say it is true and not unreasonable. Pretty bizarre. [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/12/17/787808530/menstrual-huts-are-illegal-in-nepal-so-why-are-women-still-dying-in-them https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/12/17/7878085...
locopati 2y ago
Maybe we simply don't need high birth rates everywhere. Why should women shoulder the burden of having children and raising them when there are other options for themselves?
- koakuma-chan 2y ago
  Can't help but make an argument: why should men shoulder the burden of going to war when there are other options for themselves? But I also think it wouldn't be that bad to just sit back and watch the world burn, not caring about birth rates. What is there to lose if life is meaningless?
  - locopati 2y ago
    The world doesn't burn if birthrates go down, it changes. And fwiw, if men didn't shoulder the burden of going to war, maybe we'd stop having wars? That's a good thing.
bryanlarsen 2y ago
Japan has relatively low wages compared to Europe & the US, women work at a much lower rate, the birth rate is substantially lower even once you exclude immigration, gender roles are much stricter and opportunities for women outside of the house & child bearing are much more limited. With all of your facts wrong, I'm fairly confident your conclusion is wrong also.
- forgotoldacc 2y ago
  Birth rate of Finland and Japan are about equal. Birth rate of Japan and Spain are about equal. What's the source of your "facts"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fertility_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fer...
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    Even the worst countries in Europe have a higher rate than Japan, and most are substantially higher. Those numbers are exponentials, so a even a seemingly small difference is quite large.
    - forgotoldacc 2y ago
      The list I linked shows several places with rates worse than Japan, including Italy. Then there are places like Spain with rates that are about equal. Then there are countries that are barely better, like Greece. I'm not sure where you're getting "substantially higher" from.

reedf1 2y ago

The article makes a strong case that it is not due to women working; as Japan has some of the lowest female labour market participation in the developed world.

piva00 2y ago

East Asian cultures like Japan and South Korea are extremely chauvinistic when compared to Western societies. Gender roles are still strong and women are expected to be a "good wife" taking care of kids, house chores, etc. It's no surprise that educated ones will reject that, as a sibling comment mentions, Japanese women labour participation is lower than in Western societies.

forgotoldacc 2y ago
One thing that's not unusual in Japan is for women here to want to be housewives. A lot of people just don't like office politics and commuting and there's nothing wrong with that. The idea that educated people MUST work at a company feels kind of antiquated, honestly. Normalize education for the sake of simply having educated people in society.

TheSpiceIsLife 2y ago

> the ones where menstruating women are considered filthy and isolated for a week from the men I think you’re massively overstating that, and probably misinterpreting what the Quran actually says. English translation, which probably misses some of the nuance of the original text: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstruation_in_Islam https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstruation_in_Islam And they ask you about menstruation. Say: It is a harm (painful situation); therefore keep aloof from the women during the menstrual discharge and do not go near them until they have become clean; then when they have cleansed themselves, go in to them as Allah has commanded you; surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves. For anyone who’s lived with women who have a hard time of menstruation, that’s not entirely unreasonable advice, and it indicates women are given less strict rules to follow due to the difficulties they’ve to contend with as women, which also seems not entirely unreasonable. There are other versus that deal with the treatment of women specifically, and those versus also have at least some not entirely unreasonable advice, especially given the context of a world with less advanced medicine, I mean historically, as did we all, and the idea that menstruating / pregnant women ought be given additional consideration.

Aloisius 2y ago
You're assuming they were referring to Islam. Women are isolated from men during menstruation, to various degrees from limited touching to full exile to menstruation huts, in other religions and cultures.
- TheSpiceIsLife 2y ago
  One quarter of the worlds population is Islamic, and it is typically what people complain about.
forgotoldacc 2y ago
I was referring to Nepal where women were, until recently, exiled during menstruation. And birth rates there have also fallen with modernization. [1] But it is interesting that you immediately jump to defend Islam in saying it's misinterpreting it, then say it is true and not unreasonable. Pretty bizarre. [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/12/17/787808530/menstrual-huts-are-illegal-in-nepal-so-why-are-women-still-dying-in-them https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/12/17/7878085...

locopati 2y ago

Maybe we simply don't need high birth rates everywhere. Why should women shoulder the burden of having children and raising them when there are other options for themselves?

koakuma-chan 2y ago
Can't help but make an argument: why should men shoulder the burden of going to war when there are other options for themselves? But I also think it wouldn't be that bad to just sit back and watch the world burn, not caring about birth rates. What is there to lose if life is meaningless?
- locopati 2y ago
  The world doesn't burn if birthrates go down, it changes. And fwiw, if men didn't shoulder the burden of going to war, maybe we'd stop having wars? That's a good thing.

bryanlarsen 2y ago

Japan has relatively low wages compared to Europe & the US, women work at a much lower rate, the birth rate is substantially lower even once you exclude immigration, gender roles are much stricter and opportunities for women outside of the house & child bearing are much more limited. With all of your facts wrong, I'm fairly confident your conclusion is wrong also.

forgotoldacc 2y ago
Birth rate of Finland and Japan are about equal. Birth rate of Japan and Spain are about equal. What's the source of your "facts"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fertility_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fer...
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  Even the worst countries in Europe have a higher rate than Japan, and most are substantially higher. Those numbers are exponentials, so a even a seemingly small difference is quite large.
  - forgotoldacc 2y ago
    The list I linked shows several places with rates worse than Japan, including Italy. Then there are places like Spain with rates that are about equal. Then there are countries that are barely better, like Greece. I'm not sure where you're getting "substantially higher" from.