4 ms·

What happens to foreign citizens traveling to UK with encrypted devices? If I have advanced data protection on my iPhone, it surely won't be disabled automatica

What happens to foreign citizens traveling to UK with encrypted devices? If I have advanced data protection on my iPhone, it surely won't be disabled automatically when I cross the border. How do they handle this case legally?

soco 2y ago
I think you are subject to local laws when you travel. So the question is rather, can UK request you to unlock it yourself?
- Urahandystar 2y ago
  Yes see the case of the french journalist held under the terrorism act at the request of the french government. Whether you do or don't is up to you and your willingness to spend years in prison.
  - ivan_gammel 2y ago
    That was illegal, apparently. He sued and settled: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68922874 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68922874
    - soco 2y ago
      I think you will agree that not many people will choose this path, doing jail time while waiting for a settlement. At least I definitely wouldn't. So then, what is the point of this strong encryption, when the only time it would matter you can and will be forced to skip it? The xkcd $5 wrench will always look stronger, be it wielded by a criminal or by a government. Encryption is only as good as real life allows, so in this situation if you want stronger encryption against the government, you must have a law permitting that. As for protection from the criminals, good luck.
      - ivan_gammel 2y ago
        They detained him for 24 hours instead of allowed 6. Not a big deal. I have no details on what happened next, but to be able to sue he must have been cleared by court. So the remaining question will be if police abuse is systemic or exceptional in the UK?
kelnos 2y ago
Well, the UK can lock you up until you give them your passwords. That method usually works pretty well for nation states.
- zombot 2y ago
  Does that mean that all encryption is now illegal in the UK, even for foreign citizens?
  - zipy124 2y ago
    witholding your password or encryption keys has been illegal since 2000 in the uk under section 49 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 , and by section 53 refusal can lead to 2 to 5 years in prison.
  - desas 2y ago
    Not at all. It means that the UK police can compel you to turn over your decryption keys if it is deemed necessary and proportionate to prevent or investigate a crime.
    - zombot 2y ago
      Which makes the requested backdoor completely frivolous and something only criminals would need.
- ivan_gammel 2y ago
  Can they do it now or they may/are expected to pass the necessary legislation for that?
  - rich_sasha 2y ago
    I guess what OP meant is, the court can compel you to do so - and yes, already. Basically the court can compel you to provide any information it needs in the course of legal proceedings, and until you do, fine and/or imprison you indefinitely. But, you know, there must be legal proceedings, the court must be satisfied that the information is necessary, etc. The guy at the border can't do that, on their own initiative. But of course, they can just not let you in.
zarzavat 2y ago
As far as I understand, the UK gave Apple an order that has effective worldwide extent to insert a backdoor. Clearly you can't have a backdoor that only works for people in a certain location, since people are not fixed in one place. Apple chose to partially comply with the order, by disabling ADP for UK users, instead of inserting a backdoor. Apple is making the distinction here between UK and non-UK, so they can define a "UK user" however they want. A foreign citizen travelling in the UK almost certainly won't be affected. In other words, they aren't handling this case legally, or at least that is a matter that may be resolved in court if the UK is unsatisfied with Apple's method of compliance. Apple would seek to challenge the UK's jurisdiction in that case.
pjc50 2y ago
Same as people travelling to the US with encrypted devices: the border police have full discretion to ask you to do anything, and ban you from the country if you don't comply.

soco 2y ago

I think you are subject to local laws when you travel. So the question is rather, can UK request you to unlock it yourself?

Urahandystar 2y ago
Yes see the case of the french journalist held under the terrorism act at the request of the french government. Whether you do or don't is up to you and your willingness to spend years in prison.
- ivan_gammel 2y ago
  That was illegal, apparently. He sued and settled: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68922874 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68922874
  - soco 2y ago
    I think you will agree that not many people will choose this path, doing jail time while waiting for a settlement. At least I definitely wouldn't. So then, what is the point of this strong encryption, when the only time it would matter you can and will be forced to skip it? The xkcd $5 wrench will always look stronger, be it wielded by a criminal or by a government. Encryption is only as good as real life allows, so in this situation if you want stronger encryption against the government, you must have a law permitting that. As for protection from the criminals, good luck.
    - ivan_gammel 2y ago
      They detained him for 24 hours instead of allowed 6. Not a big deal. I have no details on what happened next, but to be able to sue he must have been cleared by court. So the remaining question will be if police abuse is systemic or exceptional in the UK?

kelnos 2y ago

Well, the UK can lock you up until you give them your passwords. That method usually works pretty well for nation states.

zombot 2y ago
Does that mean that all encryption is now illegal in the UK, even for foreign citizens?
- zipy124 2y ago
  witholding your password or encryption keys has been illegal since 2000 in the uk under section 49 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 , and by section 53 refusal can lead to 2 to 5 years in prison.
- desas 2y ago
  Not at all. It means that the UK police can compel you to turn over your decryption keys if it is deemed necessary and proportionate to prevent or investigate a crime.
  - zombot 2y ago
    Which makes the requested backdoor completely frivolous and something only criminals would need.
ivan_gammel 2y ago
Can they do it now or they may/are expected to pass the necessary legislation for that?
- rich_sasha 2y ago
  I guess what OP meant is, the court can compel you to do so - and yes, already. Basically the court can compel you to provide any information it needs in the course of legal proceedings, and until you do, fine and/or imprison you indefinitely. But, you know, there must be legal proceedings, the court must be satisfied that the information is necessary, etc. The guy at the border can't do that, on their own initiative. But of course, they can just not let you in.

zarzavat 2y ago

As far as I understand, the UK gave Apple an order that has effective worldwide extent to insert a backdoor. Clearly you can't have a backdoor that only works for people in a certain location, since people are not fixed in one place. Apple chose to partially comply with the order, by disabling ADP for UK users, instead of inserting a backdoor. Apple is making the distinction here between UK and non-UK, so they can define a "UK user" however they want. A foreign citizen travelling in the UK almost certainly won't be affected. In other words, they aren't handling this case legally, or at least that is a matter that may be resolved in court if the UK is unsatisfied with Apple's method of compliance. Apple would seek to challenge the UK's jurisdiction in that case.

pjc50 2y ago

Same as people travelling to the US with encrypted devices: the border police have full discretion to ask you to do anything, and ban you from the country if you don't comply.