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"Upon initial review of the U.S. and U.K. bilateral CLOUD Act Agreement, the United Kingdom may not issue demands for data of U.S. citizens, nationals, or lawfu

by stuaxo 2y ago

"Upon initial review of the U.S. and U.K. bilateral CLOUD Act Agreement, the United Kingdom may not issue demands for data of U.S. citizens, nationals, or lawful permanent residents ("U.S. persons"),..." OK, I can see that, though even then I could imagine this sometimes being the case. "...nor is it authorized to demand the data of persons located inside the United States." Really, even if in the case of individual UK citizens, under all circumstances ?

Retric 2y ago
Demand isn’t the same thing as request. As long as the US is willing to rubber stamp most requests it’s not nearly as limiting in practice as it might seem in theory.
bryanrasmussen 2y ago
I'm thinking in this case there is probably a legal difference between "may not" and "is not authorized", so I would expect the interpretation would be you can request data on a UK citizen in the US but not demand - so up to whoever you request it from. For any U.S Person you may not say anything about it at all. I mean that is totally reasonable, if they want that data it's basically a diplomatic matter not a demand you issue.
- genewitch 2y ago
  Under no circumstances will UK be authorized to spy on a US citizen; the UK may possibly get authoritarian to spy on a UK citizen in the US, but can't do it merely because it's someone they're interested in or even a UK citizen visiting. With your clarification.
  - genewitch 2y ago
    uh, no pun intended on "authoritarian" the word i wanted to be there was "authorization"!
dfawcus 2y ago
Except surely the UK hasn't? What they've reportedly demanded is that systems be changed, so that later a demand for data may be be effective. As to if any hypothetical later demand for later would contravene the agreement would seem to simply be speculation for the moment. Surely the UK could just be careful not make a contravening demand at that time? Which would then make this whole "review" a case of PR on the part of the US politician. Now it is quite bad that the UK has apparently triggered this bit of the snoopers charter, but it would seem to be othogonal to that agreement.* * Unless someone bothers to review the agreement, and finds that such meta-demand are covered.

by stuaxo 2y ago

Retric 2y ago

Demand isn’t the same thing as request. As long as the US is willing to rubber stamp most requests it’s not nearly as limiting in practice as it might seem in theory.

bryanrasmussen 2y ago

I'm thinking in this case there is probably a legal difference between "may not" and "is not authorized", so I would expect the interpretation would be you can request data on a UK citizen in the US but not demand - so up to whoever you request it from. For any U.S Person you may not say anything about it at all. I mean that is totally reasonable, if they want that data it's basically a diplomatic matter not a demand you issue.

genewitch 2y ago
Under no circumstances will UK be authorized to spy on a US citizen; the UK may possibly get authoritarian to spy on a UK citizen in the US, but can't do it merely because it's someone they're interested in or even a UK citizen visiting. With your clarification.
- genewitch 2y ago
  uh, no pun intended on "authoritarian" the word i wanted to be there was "authorization"!

dfawcus 2y ago

Except surely the UK hasn't? What they've reportedly demanded is that systems be changed, so that later a demand for data may be be effective. As to if any hypothetical later demand for later would contravene the agreement would seem to simply be speculation for the moment. Surely the UK could just be careful not make a contravening demand at that time? Which would then make this whole "review" a case of PR on the part of the US politician. Now it is quite bad that the UK has apparently triggered this bit of the snoopers charter, but it would seem to be othogonal to that agreement.* * Unless someone bothers to review the agreement, and finds that such meta-demand are covered.