4 ms·

I live in a very red state and mostly know Trump voters. I disagree with them on plenty of political topics (though that was true with Biden voters as well). I

I live in a very red state and mostly know Trump voters. I disagree with them on plenty of political topics (though that was true with Biden voters as well). I don't consider many of them hateful though, and they are helpful to neighbors. The last 2-8 years has felt very strange to me comparing what I experience day to day and how I often see our society more broadly described. I've lived in Seattle, Europe, and the southern US over that time. Everywhere I've been I found people in the area to be friendly and helpful. Watch TV though and it sure seems like whoever the "other side" for a particular context are a bunch of horrible, hateful, angry people that just don't get it. With regards to MAGA specifically. I don't find most of the ideas I hear floated as more hateful than the overtone coming from the democratic side of the aisle during the pandemic response. Anyone who chose not to get vaccinated was demonized and painted as a murder who hates old people. Anyone who disagreed with the main narrative was generally ostracized and slapped with labels like "anti-vaxxer" or "anti-science".

happytoexplain 2y ago
>With regards to MAGA specifically. I don't find most of the ideas I hear floated as more hateful than the overtone coming from the democratic side This is eyebrow-raising. I have no defense for any political party for all the un-subtle criticisms they inevitably put out, Democrats or otherwise. But to suggest that MAGA are, on par, less hateful than Democrats, begs expounding. In other words, you can certainly make that argument, but it flies in the face of common understanding - which doesn't mean it's not true! It just means you have to give a little more than just stating it. It's like saying, "Actually, Genghis Khan didn't conquer very much", and leaving it at that instead of presenting some kind of insight. Of course, there is always simply the bubble explanation (my bubble is not representative, or your bubble is not representative), however... regarding the degree of MAGA's hatred for liberals and the people liberals defend? I hate being curt but: Come on.
- _heimdall 2y ago
  I didn't get vaccinated for Covid after spending months reading whitepapers and listening to vaccine experts discuss the pandemic as it played out through 2020. I experienced plenty of hate thrown my way for 2 or 3 years after that decision, including in speeches from the president. I don't know how to quantify hatefulness, especially in a large group, well enough to absolutely compare the two. I do strongly stand behind the fact that plenty of hate was thrown towards anyone who disagreed with the narrative during the pandemic response though. More than MAGA? No clue, but a relative comparison doesn't make it better in absolute terms.
  - fzeroracer 2y ago
    This sort of rhetoric might've worked pre-Presidency but you would have to be either deliberately ignorant or outright agree with some of the hateful rhetoric of the president. Things like depriving transgender individuals of their basic rights, moving to denaturalize citizens, the white house posting illegal immigration deportation ASMR [1] and many, many more. [1] https://x.com/WhiteHouse/status/1891922058415603980 https://x.com/WhiteHouse/status/1891922058415603980
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      Oh I don't agree with any of the examples you raised. I also don't know how to compare levels of hate, though. I took issue with Obama-era ICE raids, Biden's speeches regarding anyone that decided not to get vaccinated, Bush's description of really most of the middle east. Hell, even how many have talked about Russians as though every single Russian citizen supports the Ukraine war is hateful. Hate is almost a given when groups are given a name and we begin othering people. That's nothing new to human history and has seemed to be more and more common over the last decade or two.
  - unquietwiki 2y ago
    I think part of why the shots became so controversial, is because the disease adapted anyway. You're basically having to decide on "less bad" vs "roll the dice" when you inevitably get COVID. People were already needing encouragement to get a flu shot; now you need two every 6-12 months? And then you had the whole sidebar discussion of getting Ivermectin, or snake oil silver supplements, or whatever else that was suggested as a cure; you don't get that with discussions over flu. So yeah, it all got uglier than it needed to be. We in the US still haven't fully come to grips with the loss of over a million people to COVID. And now we're going to kick the can on proven public health measures, that have nothing to do with COVID, because of the off chance someone will become socially isolated / "less cool" to take care of their "freak" neurodivergent child.
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      I can only speak to my experience in the US and Europe during the pandemic, but I didn't feel singled out because people were aware that the virus kept adapting. That was actually one of the key lessons I heard from virologists early on in 2020 - viruses like this tend to mutate quickly and escape vaccine-induced immunity. It wasn't until the vaccines were announced that the story changed and we were being told that the vaccines were effective and would only require one or two shots for permanent protection. It got ugly because scientific study, and more importantly the limits of scientific understanding, was thrown out in favor of a more religious take on the whole field. Media organizations, late night talk shows, and even comedians were doing segments shaming anyone that was attempting to do their ow research (aka learn, consider the trade offs for themselves, and practice informed consent).
apical_dendrite 2y ago
It's very common for people who do or support terrible things to also be nice to their neighbors, or more generally to be nice to the people they can identify with and know on a personal level. They just don't see the people that they can't identify with as fully human and worthy of the same dignity. This is not to say that your neighbors are evil people - I'm just saying that you can't just judge people by how they interact with people in their in-group.
- jorvi 2y ago
  "The true measure of a man is most evident in how he treats those who can do him neither good nor ill."
- _heimdall 2y ago
  I don't actually think I would have fallen into the "in-group" for most of my neighbors over the years. In most cases I've had pretty wildly different political and religious views, and for a period was myself an immigrant that could hardly speak the local language. My honest view is that people individually and in small groups are surprisingly friendly, helpful, and welcoming. Its only when the community or group gets too big and people start defining teams that things get nasty.

happytoexplain 2y ago

>With regards to MAGA specifically. I don't find most of the ideas I hear floated as more hateful than the overtone coming from the democratic side This is eyebrow-raising. I have no defense for any political party for all the un-subtle criticisms they inevitably put out, Democrats or otherwise. But to suggest that MAGA are, on par, less hateful than Democrats, begs expounding. In other words, you can certainly make that argument, but it flies in the face of common understanding - which doesn't mean it's not true! It just means you have to give a little more than just stating it. It's like saying, "Actually, Genghis Khan didn't conquer very much", and leaving it at that instead of presenting some kind of insight. Of course, there is always simply the bubble explanation (my bubble is not representative, or your bubble is not representative), however... regarding the degree of MAGA's hatred for liberals and the people liberals defend? I hate being curt but: Come on.

_heimdall 2y ago
I didn't get vaccinated for Covid after spending months reading whitepapers and listening to vaccine experts discuss the pandemic as it played out through 2020. I experienced plenty of hate thrown my way for 2 or 3 years after that decision, including in speeches from the president. I don't know how to quantify hatefulness, especially in a large group, well enough to absolutely compare the two. I do strongly stand behind the fact that plenty of hate was thrown towards anyone who disagreed with the narrative during the pandemic response though. More than MAGA? No clue, but a relative comparison doesn't make it better in absolute terms.
- fzeroracer 2y ago
  This sort of rhetoric might've worked pre-Presidency but you would have to be either deliberately ignorant or outright agree with some of the hateful rhetoric of the president. Things like depriving transgender individuals of their basic rights, moving to denaturalize citizens, the white house posting illegal immigration deportation ASMR [1] and many, many more. [1] https://x.com/WhiteHouse/status/1891922058415603980 https://x.com/WhiteHouse/status/1891922058415603980
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    Oh I don't agree with any of the examples you raised. I also don't know how to compare levels of hate, though. I took issue with Obama-era ICE raids, Biden's speeches regarding anyone that decided not to get vaccinated, Bush's description of really most of the middle east. Hell, even how many have talked about Russians as though every single Russian citizen supports the Ukraine war is hateful. Hate is almost a given when groups are given a name and we begin othering people. That's nothing new to human history and has seemed to be more and more common over the last decade or two.
- unquietwiki 2y ago
  I think part of why the shots became so controversial, is because the disease adapted anyway. You're basically having to decide on "less bad" vs "roll the dice" when you inevitably get COVID. People were already needing encouragement to get a flu shot; now you need two every 6-12 months? And then you had the whole sidebar discussion of getting Ivermectin, or snake oil silver supplements, or whatever else that was suggested as a cure; you don't get that with discussions over flu. So yeah, it all got uglier than it needed to be. We in the US still haven't fully come to grips with the loss of over a million people to COVID. And now we're going to kick the can on proven public health measures, that have nothing to do with COVID, because of the off chance someone will become socially isolated / "less cool" to take care of their "freak" neurodivergent child.
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    I can only speak to my experience in the US and Europe during the pandemic, but I didn't feel singled out because people were aware that the virus kept adapting. That was actually one of the key lessons I heard from virologists early on in 2020 - viruses like this tend to mutate quickly and escape vaccine-induced immunity. It wasn't until the vaccines were announced that the story changed and we were being told that the vaccines were effective and would only require one or two shots for permanent protection. It got ugly because scientific study, and more importantly the limits of scientific understanding, was thrown out in favor of a more religious take on the whole field. Media organizations, late night talk shows, and even comedians were doing segments shaming anyone that was attempting to do their ow research (aka learn, consider the trade offs for themselves, and practice informed consent).

apical_dendrite 2y ago

It's very common for people who do or support terrible things to also be nice to their neighbors, or more generally to be nice to the people they can identify with and know on a personal level. They just don't see the people that they can't identify with as fully human and worthy of the same dignity. This is not to say that your neighbors are evil people - I'm just saying that you can't just judge people by how they interact with people in their in-group.

jorvi 2y ago
"The true measure of a man is most evident in how he treats those who can do him neither good nor ill."
_heimdall 2y ago
I don't actually think I would have fallen into the "in-group" for most of my neighbors over the years. In most cases I've had pretty wildly different political and religious views, and for a period was myself an immigrant that could hardly speak the local language. My honest view is that people individually and in small groups are surprisingly friendly, helpful, and welcoming. Its only when the community or group gets too big and people start defining teams that things get nasty.