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From where I sit, every time the left does something e.g. affirmative action, unhinged illegal immigration, or some other woke thing, they try to soften it, den

From where I sit, every time the left does something e.g. affirmative action, unhinged illegal immigration, or some other woke thing, they try to soften it, deny it outright, or change the subject, similar to what you're doing I agree with GP, prior to today's ouster the implicit pillars were social justice, feminism, metoo, mental health, or LGBT. Pretty much every piece of media coming out of these institutions has been consistently cramming this worldview down people's throats since around 2017. Whatever this shit is, I'd rather just hear billionaire propaganda and see every one of these ideologes get canned And I don't consume right wing news either, I've been reading the NYT for the past 5 years and that alone was enough to convince me things need to change

mmooss 2y ago
> I don't consume right wing news either You use the language of the right as if it is truth. For example, "unhinged illegal immigration' is a characterization of the right, not what I've ever seen someone on the left advocate for. Why would you want things like human rights of LGBT people, protection of women from sexual abuse and coersion, the freedom of women to be equals in our society, or justice for minorities - why would you want those 'canned'? What will we do about those issues?
- matrix87 2y ago
  Oh I should've said "ideologues" instead of "ideologes". Namely, the people who keep hammering this shit in newspapers But to address your points > human rights of LGBT people Most of the contention here is around the T. I don't really have an opinion. I'm not changing my voting pattern because of such a small demographic > protection of women from sexual abuse and coersion And now we're living in the world of guilty until proven innocent. E.g. donglegate. Enough is enough > justice for minorities Which in practice means officially racist and sexist policies directed towards white and Asian men because they're considered "less favorable" demographics. I think the fundamentally dishonest way this issue in particular is framed is enough to completely delegitimize anything else they're saying. Consider me a single issue voter on this issue moving forward > For example, "unhinged illegal immigration' is a characterization of the right Well, it's technically illegal, right? And compared to other Western countries who actually have borders, it's technically unhinged. "Undocumented migrants" - what does this mean? It's just a dishonest euphemism that tries to legitimize the situation
  - mmooss 2y ago
    What are your solutions to these issues? All I see is ranting at others, which doesn't solve the problems. Regarding "unhinged" immigration, you haven't said anything that indicates people on the left support it (whatever it is - the hyperbole masks any real meaning). > other Western countries who actually have borders Other Western countries have similar immigration problems - it's a major issue in the EU, for example.
    - matrix87 2y ago
      > What are your solutions to these issues? I don't see issues, I see "issues". What people have done to solve them is a bigger issue for me than what they're trying to solve. E.g. affirmative action, another cute euphemism > you haven't said anything that indicates people on the left support it It's common knowledge? The summary left position in the US is to give a path to legal status, it creates a moral hazard that incentivizes more illegal immigration. And the typical rhetorical strategy is to try to play dumb or downplay that this will happen > it's a major issue in the EU, for example. Which, for the most part (e.g. Germany, the one in the news right now) is legal immigration
      - mmooss 2y ago
        > I don't see issues, I see "issues". That's convenient, but there's not much support for it. For example, abuse, exclusion, widespread discrimination against minorities and women is well-established. It's just a lazy argument - called reactionaryism - to deny it all without offering a better solution. I think most reactionaries know they are wrong, and know that analysis and solutions on the left are probably accurate and optimal, and then choose to let people die or suffer rather than do any hard work or stand for anything. Look at Kennedy denying measles as significant.
        matrix87 2y ago
        You can't really use statistics to determine for me what's an issue to me. It's pretty subjective. That's not reactionaryism, that's me as a voter doing a cost benefit analysis. Which frankly is the only rational way to vote Frankly I think this insistence that people vote against their own self interest more reactionary than the alternative. Like insisting that people reject sense for nonsense. Religion essentially
fzeroracer 2y ago
You're wrong on all points, especially since a lot of the legacy media during Trump's first term had no problem sucking up to him.

mmooss 2y ago

> I don't consume right wing news either You use the language of the right as if it is truth. For example, "unhinged illegal immigration' is a characterization of the right, not what I've ever seen someone on the left advocate for. Why would you want things like human rights of LGBT people, protection of women from sexual abuse and coersion, the freedom of women to be equals in our society, or justice for minorities - why would you want those 'canned'? What will we do about those issues?

matrix87 2y ago
Oh I should've said "ideologues" instead of "ideologes". Namely, the people who keep hammering this shit in newspapers But to address your points > human rights of LGBT people Most of the contention here is around the T. I don't really have an opinion. I'm not changing my voting pattern because of such a small demographic > protection of women from sexual abuse and coersion And now we're living in the world of guilty until proven innocent. E.g. donglegate. Enough is enough > justice for minorities Which in practice means officially racist and sexist policies directed towards white and Asian men because they're considered "less favorable" demographics. I think the fundamentally dishonest way this issue in particular is framed is enough to completely delegitimize anything else they're saying. Consider me a single issue voter on this issue moving forward > For example, "unhinged illegal immigration' is a characterization of the right Well, it's technically illegal, right? And compared to other Western countries who actually have borders, it's technically unhinged. "Undocumented migrants" - what does this mean? It's just a dishonest euphemism that tries to legitimize the situation
- mmooss 2y ago
  What are your solutions to these issues? All I see is ranting at others, which doesn't solve the problems. Regarding "unhinged" immigration, you haven't said anything that indicates people on the left support it (whatever it is - the hyperbole masks any real meaning). > other Western countries who actually have borders Other Western countries have similar immigration problems - it's a major issue in the EU, for example.
  - matrix87 2y ago
    > What are your solutions to these issues? I don't see issues, I see "issues". What people have done to solve them is a bigger issue for me than what they're trying to solve. E.g. affirmative action, another cute euphemism > you haven't said anything that indicates people on the left support it It's common knowledge? The summary left position in the US is to give a path to legal status, it creates a moral hazard that incentivizes more illegal immigration. And the typical rhetorical strategy is to try to play dumb or downplay that this will happen > it's a major issue in the EU, for example. Which, for the most part (e.g. Germany, the one in the news right now) is legal immigration
    - mmooss 2y ago
      > I don't see issues, I see "issues". That's convenient, but there's not much support for it. For example, abuse, exclusion, widespread discrimination against minorities and women is well-established. It's just a lazy argument - called reactionaryism - to deny it all without offering a better solution. I think most reactionaries know they are wrong, and know that analysis and solutions on the left are probably accurate and optimal, and then choose to let people die or suffer rather than do any hard work or stand for anything. Look at Kennedy denying measles as significant.
      - matrix87 2y ago
        You can't really use statistics to determine for me what's an issue to me. It's pretty subjective. That's not reactionaryism, that's me as a voter doing a cost benefit analysis. Which frankly is the only rational way to vote Frankly I think this insistence that people vote against their own self interest more reactionary than the alternative. Like insisting that people reject sense for nonsense. Religion essentially

fzeroracer 2y ago

You're wrong on all points, especially since a lot of the legacy media during Trump's first term had no problem sucking up to him.