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Since you've ignored my direct question, you encourage me to assume you don't care about the data but are cherry-picking citations which affirm your beliefs. T

Since you've ignored my direct question, you encourage me to assume you don't care about the data but are cherry-picking citations which affirm your beliefs. To double check, by "native" you do mean people born in Britain, right? Like, a British woman born in Birmingham whose parents were born in Pakistan is a ethnic minority who is a native, right? The discrimination in those two articles appears to be on the basis of economics, not specifically ethnicity. To give an example from Florida, Tarpon Springs has a lot of people with Greek ancestry because over a century ago their ancestors immigrated there to work in the sponge industry. It was cheaper to bring in experienced divers from Greece than to train local people. The local demographics are still very different from the rest of the state. Your Sun citation does not say why the 700 Brit students were denied a place at medical schools. Was there space and funding for them? The "it will take a decade for extra places at medical school to produce more doctors" suggests there is not space. Your Telegraph article concerns hiring white people vs. an ethnic minority candidate. It says nothing about prioritizing foreigners over people born in Britain. Of only white British people are native then the Sun article doesn't say how many of the 700 Brit students denied a place were white or ethnic. It doesn't even say how many are foreigners. > as an excuse to maintain mass immigration That's a red herring. Even if they shut down immigration to a trickle, you know they are going to include medical staff as a special exception, right? That demand is already the reason why doctors have relatively mobile world-wide employment.

like_any_other 2y ago
> Since you've ignored my direct question, you encourage me to assume you don't care about the data but are cherry-picking citations which affirm your beliefs. I ignored it because too often that kind of nitpicking is just an excuse to dismiss data, and I have only so much time. In the past I've had people dismiss statistics showing a disparity of a factor of 2, because they failed to consider an effect that, when considered, changed the numbers by 0.1% (which was the obvious, expected magnitude). But okay, I'll assume you were being genuine. It's relevant because why would it not be relevant? Is Ireland so different from England, are their immigrants so different, that we can't make any inferences from one to the other? If you're not happy with that answer, we can always look directly at what the situation is in England: Half of foreign doctors would not be able to practise in Britain if they were subjected to the same level of scrutiny as British doctors, a study by University College London has found - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/10773857/Half-of-foreign-doctors-are-below-British-standards.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/10773857/Half-of-foreig... The General Medical Council (GMC) said too many doctors are still being reported by their employers for alleged misconduct compared with white British-trained medics. [naturally The Guardian does not even consider the possibility that this disparity could be because they also commit more misconduct] - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/17/british-bame-and-foreign-doctors-suffer-discrimination-throughout-careers https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/17/british-bame... Foreign doctors are revealed to be behind 60% of all sex assaults on patients - but NHS wants fewer of them taken to disciplinary hearings - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7244791/Foreign-doctors-revealed-60-sex-assaults-patients.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7244791/Foreign-doc... 72% of struck off doctors are from overseas - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3543899/72-struck-NHS-doctors-overseas-cases-include-Indian-GP-ran-immigration-scam-Malaysian-medic-secretly-filmed-female-patients.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3543899/72-struck-N... Foreign doctors are 13 TIMES more likely to be investigated for incompetence because of problems grasping English - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4397252/Foreign-doctors-13-TIMES-likely-incompetent.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4397252/Foreign-d... The same as in Ireland. No surprise - your question was like asking how an example from Virginia is relevant to Kentucky.
- eesmith 2y ago
  If the nitpicking shows that you often misinterpret the citations you give, then showing more citations - especially to newspaper articles rather than the actual reports - isn't going to help. Like, I don't care about your views about how The Guardian does their reporting about the GMC report, when you should be linking to and citing the GMC report. If that report says that the investigations into alleged misconduct showed the allegations were almost all unfounded, then how would that affect your views? If the report shows evidence the equivalent complaints about "white British doctors were more often dealt with by ‘sitting down and sorting it out’" (quoting one of your citations) rather than formal proceedings, then how would that affect your views? As far as I can tell, all of your links refer to the same report. Why have me read all of them rather than pointing me to the actual report? Linking to the primary sources would also stop me from rolling my eyes about seeing all your Daily Mail citations, which infamously the Wikipedia editors characterize as having a "reputation for poor fact checking, sensationalism and flat-out fabrication." As an example of sensationalism, the "13 TIMES" in your last headline only refers to doctors who qualified in Bangladesh. They could have used the average for all foreign doctors, which would no doubt be lower, but not as sensational. > your question was like asking how an example from Virginia is relevant to Kentucky. My questions was not of Ireland vs. UK but of the very small numbers involved, compared to the number of doctors, and of why specifically that one year. Small number statistics fluctuate a lot, and newspapers only report the unusual cases. If in 2011 there were only 4 foreign-trained doctors out of 30 FTP inquiries, would that make the news? Would you find it if it did? Look, if you only get your information from news sources - and all but one of your citations has been that way - then you'll inherit not just the bias that each news source has, but also the system bias of only reading things which qualify as "news". Since you linked to The Daily Mail, the following quote attributed to its former owner seems appropriate: "When a dog bites a man, that is not news, because it happens so often. But if a man bites a dog, that is news." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_bites_dog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_bites_dog Are you only reading "Man Bites Dog" stories?

like_any_other 2y ago

> Since you've ignored my direct question, you encourage me to assume you don't care about the data but are cherry-picking citations which affirm your beliefs. I ignored it because too often that kind of nitpicking is just an excuse to dismiss data, and I have only so much time. In the past I've had people dismiss statistics showing a disparity of a factor of 2, because they failed to consider an effect that, when considered, changed the numbers by 0.1% (which was the obvious, expected magnitude). But okay, I'll assume you were being genuine. It's relevant because why would it not be relevant? Is Ireland so different from England, are their immigrants so different, that we can't make any inferences from one to the other? If you're not happy with that answer, we can always look directly at what the situation is in England: Half of foreign doctors would not be able to practise in Britain if they were subjected to the same level of scrutiny as British doctors, a study by University College London has found - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/10773857/Half-of-foreign-doctors-are-below-British-standards.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/10773857/Half-of-foreig... The General Medical Council (GMC) said too many doctors are still being reported by their employers for alleged misconduct compared with white British-trained medics. [naturally The Guardian does not even consider the possibility that this disparity could be because they also commit more misconduct] - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/17/british-bame-and-foreign-doctors-suffer-discrimination-throughout-careers https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/17/british-bame... Foreign doctors are revealed to be behind 60% of all sex assaults on patients - but NHS wants fewer of them taken to disciplinary hearings - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7244791/Foreign-doctors-revealed-60-sex-assaults-patients.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7244791/Foreign-doc... 72% of struck off doctors are from overseas - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3543899/72-struck-NHS-doctors-overseas-cases-include-Indian-GP-ran-immigration-scam-Malaysian-medic-secretly-filmed-female-patients.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3543899/72-struck-N... Foreign doctors are 13 TIMES more likely to be investigated for incompetence because of problems grasping English - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4397252/Foreign-doctors-13-TIMES-likely-incompetent.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4397252/Foreign-d... The same as in Ireland. No surprise - your question was like asking how an example from Virginia is relevant to Kentucky.

eesmith 2y ago
If the nitpicking shows that you often misinterpret the citations you give, then showing more citations - especially to newspaper articles rather than the actual reports - isn't going to help. Like, I don't care about your views about how The Guardian does their reporting about the GMC report, when you should be linking to and citing the GMC report. If that report says that the investigations into alleged misconduct showed the allegations were almost all unfounded, then how would that affect your views? If the report shows evidence the equivalent complaints about "white British doctors were more often dealt with by ‘sitting down and sorting it out’" (quoting one of your citations) rather than formal proceedings, then how would that affect your views? As far as I can tell, all of your links refer to the same report. Why have me read all of them rather than pointing me to the actual report? Linking to the primary sources would also stop me from rolling my eyes about seeing all your Daily Mail citations, which infamously the Wikipedia editors characterize as having a "reputation for poor fact checking, sensationalism and flat-out fabrication." As an example of sensationalism, the "13 TIMES" in your last headline only refers to doctors who qualified in Bangladesh. They could have used the average for all foreign doctors, which would no doubt be lower, but not as sensational. > your question was like asking how an example from Virginia is relevant to Kentucky. My questions was not of Ireland vs. UK but of the very small numbers involved, compared to the number of doctors, and of why specifically that one year. Small number statistics fluctuate a lot, and newspapers only report the unusual cases. If in 2011 there were only 4 foreign-trained doctors out of 30 FTP inquiries, would that make the news? Would you find it if it did? Look, if you only get your information from news sources - and all but one of your citations has been that way - then you'll inherit not just the bias that each news source has, but also the system bias of only reading things which qualify as "news". Since you linked to The Daily Mail, the following quote attributed to its former owner seems appropriate: "When a dog bites a man, that is not news, because it happens so often. But if a man bites a dog, that is news." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_bites_dog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_bites_dog Are you only reading "Man Bites Dog" stories?