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My specific point was: why do you think a news article about 36 FTP inquiries in Ireland was at all relevant? A spot check of the diversity links shows they al

My specific point was: why do you think a news article about 36 FTP inquiries in Ireland was at all relevant? A spot check of the diversity links shows they all compare the statistics to the local, endogenous population. There is no reason to believe the white population of Virginia are intrinsically better teachers than the non-white population, and much evidence which shows systemic issues causing that discrepancy. The emigration of doctors to the UK refers to an exogenous and relatively mobile population. With 68M people in the UK and 8.2B people worldwide, foreign-trained doctors are highly underrepresented in the UK workplace. Do note that your BMJ article highlights how many of those foreigner doctors are not black - "diversity" isn't a single axis. In my own field, which is very specialized, most industrial-level research groups have a foreigner population far exceeding the local population because there aren't many people in the world who are interested it in, there aren't many places to get PhD-level education in it, and there aren't many places where you can be employed ... but those few companies will pay well for expertise and deal with visas. This makes for a highly mobile and global workforce. If you want more British people in the NHS, look first to your penurious politicians who have been outsourcing medical training to other countries as a way to further enrich the rich. Raise taxes (progressively on the rich) to increase NHS funding, provide better training and support for NHS staff, improve the pipeline to bring students into the medical field, including removing tuition fees. Simply shutting off immigration won't fix those systemic issues, and this article is about the problems which will happen if you do that.

like_any_other 2y ago
> If you want more British people in the NHS, look first to your penurious politicians who have been outsourcing medical training to other countries as a way to further enrich the rich. They've been doing more than that - as two of the articles show, they've been discriminating against natives in both medical education and hiring. > Simply shutting off immigration won't fix those systemic issues, and this article is about the problems which will happen if you do that. I rather think they don't want to fix those issues as an excuse to maintain mass immigration. Both Labour and Tory actions are consistent with that hypothesis.
- eesmith 2y ago
  Since you've ignored my direct question, you encourage me to assume you don't care about the data but are cherry-picking citations which affirm your beliefs. To double check, by "native" you do mean people born in Britain, right? Like, a British woman born in Birmingham whose parents were born in Pakistan is a ethnic minority who is a native, right? The discrimination in those two articles appears to be on the basis of economics, not specifically ethnicity. To give an example from Florida, Tarpon Springs has a lot of people with Greek ancestry because over a century ago their ancestors immigrated there to work in the sponge industry. It was cheaper to bring in experienced divers from Greece than to train local people. The local demographics are still very different from the rest of the state. Your Sun citation does not say why the 700 Brit students were denied a place at medical schools. Was there space and funding for them? The "it will take a decade for extra places at medical school to produce more doctors" suggests there is not space. Your Telegraph article concerns hiring white people vs. an ethnic minority candidate. It says nothing about prioritizing foreigners over people born in Britain. Of only white British people are native then the Sun article doesn't say how many of the 700 Brit students denied a place were white or ethnic. It doesn't even say how many are foreigners. > as an excuse to maintain mass immigration That's a red herring. Even if they shut down immigration to a trickle, you know they are going to include medical staff as a special exception, right? That demand is already the reason why doctors have relatively mobile world-wide employment.
  - like_any_other 2y ago
    > Since you've ignored my direct question, you encourage me to assume you don't care about the data but are cherry-picking citations which affirm your beliefs. I ignored it because too often that kind of nitpicking is just an excuse to dismiss data, and I have only so much time. In the past I've had people dismiss statistics showing a disparity of a factor of 2, because they failed to consider an effect that, when considered, changed the numbers by 0.1% (which was the obvious, expected magnitude). But okay, I'll assume you were being genuine. It's relevant because why would it not be relevant? Is Ireland so different from England, are their immigrants so different, that we can't make any inferences from one to the other? If you're not happy with that answer, we can always look directly at what the situation is in England: Half of foreign doctors would not be able to practise in Britain if they were subjected to the same level of scrutiny as British doctors, a study by University College London has found - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/10773857/Half-of-foreign-doctors-are-below-British-standards.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/10773857/Half-of-foreig... The General Medical Council (GMC) said too many doctors are still being reported by their employers for alleged misconduct compared with white British-trained medics. [naturally The Guardian does not even consider the possibility that this disparity could be because they also commit more misconduct] - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/17/british-bame-and-foreign-doctors-suffer-discrimination-throughout-careers https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/17/british-bame... Foreign doctors are revealed to be behind 60% of all sex assaults on patients - but NHS wants fewer of them taken to disciplinary hearings - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7244791/Foreign-doctors-revealed-60-sex-assaults-patients.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7244791/Foreign-doc... 72% of struck off doctors are from overseas - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3543899/72-struck-NHS-doctors-overseas-cases-include-Indian-GP-ran-immigration-scam-Malaysian-medic-secretly-filmed-female-patients.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3543899/72-struck-N... Foreign doctors are 13 TIMES more likely to be investigated for incompetence because of problems grasping English - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4397252/Foreign-doctors-13-TIMES-likely-incompetent.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4397252/Foreign-d... The same as in Ireland. No surprise - your question was like asking how an example from Virginia is relevant to Kentucky.

like_any_other 2y ago

> If you want more British people in the NHS, look first to your penurious politicians who have been outsourcing medical training to other countries as a way to further enrich the rich. They've been doing more than that - as two of the articles show, they've been discriminating against natives in both medical education and hiring. > Simply shutting off immigration won't fix those systemic issues, and this article is about the problems which will happen if you do that. I rather think they don't want to fix those issues as an excuse to maintain mass immigration. Both Labour and Tory actions are consistent with that hypothesis.

eesmith 2y ago
Since you've ignored my direct question, you encourage me to assume you don't care about the data but are cherry-picking citations which affirm your beliefs. To double check, by "native" you do mean people born in Britain, right? Like, a British woman born in Birmingham whose parents were born in Pakistan is a ethnic minority who is a native, right? The discrimination in those two articles appears to be on the basis of economics, not specifically ethnicity. To give an example from Florida, Tarpon Springs has a lot of people with Greek ancestry because over a century ago their ancestors immigrated there to work in the sponge industry. It was cheaper to bring in experienced divers from Greece than to train local people. The local demographics are still very different from the rest of the state. Your Sun citation does not say why the 700 Brit students were denied a place at medical schools. Was there space and funding for them? The "it will take a decade for extra places at medical school to produce more doctors" suggests there is not space. Your Telegraph article concerns hiring white people vs. an ethnic minority candidate. It says nothing about prioritizing foreigners over people born in Britain. Of only white British people are native then the Sun article doesn't say how many of the 700 Brit students denied a place were white or ethnic. It doesn't even say how many are foreigners. > as an excuse to maintain mass immigration That's a red herring. Even if they shut down immigration to a trickle, you know they are going to include medical staff as a special exception, right? That demand is already the reason why doctors have relatively mobile world-wide employment.
- like_any_other 2y ago
  > Since you've ignored my direct question, you encourage me to assume you don't care about the data but are cherry-picking citations which affirm your beliefs. I ignored it because too often that kind of nitpicking is just an excuse to dismiss data, and I have only so much time. In the past I've had people dismiss statistics showing a disparity of a factor of 2, because they failed to consider an effect that, when considered, changed the numbers by 0.1% (which was the obvious, expected magnitude). But okay, I'll assume you were being genuine. It's relevant because why would it not be relevant? Is Ireland so different from England, are their immigrants so different, that we can't make any inferences from one to the other? If you're not happy with that answer, we can always look directly at what the situation is in England: Half of foreign doctors would not be able to practise in Britain if they were subjected to the same level of scrutiny as British doctors, a study by University College London has found - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/10773857/Half-of-foreign-doctors-are-below-British-standards.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/10773857/Half-of-foreig... The General Medical Council (GMC) said too many doctors are still being reported by their employers for alleged misconduct compared with white British-trained medics. [naturally The Guardian does not even consider the possibility that this disparity could be because they also commit more misconduct] - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/17/british-bame-and-foreign-doctors-suffer-discrimination-throughout-careers https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/17/british-bame... Foreign doctors are revealed to be behind 60% of all sex assaults on patients - but NHS wants fewer of them taken to disciplinary hearings - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7244791/Foreign-doctors-revealed-60-sex-assaults-patients.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7244791/Foreign-doc... 72% of struck off doctors are from overseas - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3543899/72-struck-NHS-doctors-overseas-cases-include-Indian-GP-ran-immigration-scam-Malaysian-medic-secretly-filmed-female-patients.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3543899/72-struck-N... Foreign doctors are 13 TIMES more likely to be investigated for incompetence because of problems grasping English - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4397252/Foreign-doctors-13-TIMES-likely-incompetent.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4397252/Foreign-d... The same as in Ireland. No surprise - your question was like asking how an example from Virginia is relevant to Kentucky.