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These rules are abusive. They are problemizing behaviors that are ordinary, authentic, and helpful.

mtlynch 2y ago
Can you elaborate? I have a hard time understanding how that describes any of the rules here. For example: >No feigning surprise >Dan: What’s the command line? >Carol: Wait, you’ve never used the command line? I'll grant that someone may actually be surprised, so maybe it's "ordinary" and "authentic", but how is Carol's response helpful?
- readthenotes1 2y ago
  Because Dan may not have meant the words precisely as uttered, Carol's exclamation of surprise may cause Dan to focus in on better comms. "Of course I've used the command line, I meant this <insert favorite replacement for Bash>"
  - mtlynch 2y ago
    Right, but based on his statement in that environment, the odds are strongly that Dan doesn't know what the command line is. It's true that there's an outside chance that Carol's comment would be helpful given unlikely circumstances, but it's more likely that Carol's feigned surprise will make Dan feel stupid for not knowing. People don't need to say the first thing that pops into their mind just because it's their genuine reaction. When I hear people say things that sound stupid, I don't say, "Wow, I think you're stupid," even though there's an outside chance that the person I'm speaking to takes odd pleasure in people thinking they're stupid.[0] If my first thought is insulting or rude, I can think for a few more milliseconds and think of a response that achieves my goal while reducing the risk of insulting the person I'm speaking to. [0] https://danluu.com/look-stupid/ https://danluu.com/look-stupid/
roxolotl 2y ago
One of the cool things about groups openly publishing their rules of engagement is that others can decide if they want to engage with them. You find these abusive. Others find them helpful. By publicly stating these rules it helps people to decide if they want to join.
locopati 2y ago
it's about the how...there's ways to do the same thing that are less intrusive or insulting... a little kindness goes a long way in a learning space
gvedem 2y ago
"abusive", really? you can debate their merits without hyperbole. it's not clear to me that you bothered to read past any of the headlines. 1. is explicitly given the caveat "when not immediately helpful". 2. is rude, regardless of whether it is helpful. if you want to help, join in and actually help. 3. is difficult to imagine ever being helpful, and when feigned is obviously not ordinary, but an obnoxious affectation. 4. has nothing whatsoever to do with being helpful. I'll leave determining what is ordinary or authentic to others, but suffice to say I don't think either of those things is consistent case to case.
adolph 2y ago
That may be the case. My cursory read leads me to believe what the page calls rules might just as well be thought of as goals. There are many habits that can foster or hinder effective communication. Do you think this reframing is off base? Letting someone know that they impacted you by breaking a social rule and accepting that feedback gracefully when you’re the one who messed up are important ways to learn generously. One thing that often surprises people about the social rules is that we expect people to break them from time to time.
frontalier 2y ago
as shown by the examples these behaviours are not helpful and rarely authentic

Can you elaborate? I have a hard time understanding how that describes any of the rules here. For example: >No feigning surprise >Dan: What’s the command line? >Carol: Wait, you’ve never used the command line? I'll grant that someone may actually be surprised, so maybe it's "ordinary" and "authentic", but how is Carol's response helpful?

readthenotes1 2y ago
Because Dan may not have meant the words precisely as uttered, Carol's exclamation of surprise may cause Dan to focus in on better comms. "Of course I've used the command line, I meant this <insert favorite replacement for Bash>"
- mtlynch 2y ago
  Right, but based on his statement in that environment, the odds are strongly that Dan doesn't know what the command line is. It's true that there's an outside chance that Carol's comment would be helpful given unlikely circumstances, but it's more likely that Carol's feigned surprise will make Dan feel stupid for not knowing. People don't need to say the first thing that pops into their mind just because it's their genuine reaction. When I hear people say things that sound stupid, I don't say, "Wow, I think you're stupid," even though there's an outside chance that the person I'm speaking to takes odd pleasure in people thinking they're stupid.[0] If my first thought is insulting or rude, I can think for a few more milliseconds and think of a response that achieves my goal while reducing the risk of insulting the person I'm speaking to. [0] https://danluu.com/look-stupid/ https://danluu.com/look-stupid/

roxolotl 2y ago

One of the cool things about groups openly publishing their rules of engagement is that others can decide if they want to engage with them. You find these abusive. Others find them helpful. By publicly stating these rules it helps people to decide if they want to join.

locopati 2y ago

it's about the how...there's ways to do the same thing that are less intrusive or insulting... a little kindness goes a long way in a learning space

gvedem 2y ago

"abusive", really? you can debate their merits without hyperbole. it's not clear to me that you bothered to read past any of the headlines. 1. is explicitly given the caveat "when not immediately helpful". 2. is rude, regardless of whether it is helpful. if you want to help, join in and actually help. 3. is difficult to imagine ever being helpful, and when feigned is obviously not ordinary, but an obnoxious affectation. 4. has nothing whatsoever to do with being helpful. I'll leave determining what is ordinary or authentic to others, but suffice to say I don't think either of those things is consistent case to case.

adolph 2y ago

That may be the case. My cursory read leads me to believe what the page calls rules might just as well be thought of as goals. There are many habits that can foster or hinder effective communication. Do you think this reframing is off base? Letting someone know that they impacted you by breaking a social rule and accepting that feedback gracefully when you’re the one who messed up are important ways to learn generously. One thing that often surprises people about the social rules is that we expect people to break them from time to time.

frontalier 2y ago

as shown by the examples these behaviours are not helpful and rarely authentic