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I concede my error on the statistics, thank you for catching it. > It comes across like you've spread a wide net to bring up any anti-foreigner sources, while

I concede my error on the statistics, thank you for catching it. > It comes across like you've spread a wide net to bring up any anti-foreigner sources, while likely omitting all pro-foreigner sources. Sure, let me show you some pro-foreigner, or rather, pro-diversity sources (I hope you don't mind examples from across the pond): America’s schools are more diverse than ever. But the teachers are still mostly white. - https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/local/education/teacher-diversity/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/local/education... Democratic Virginia gubernatorial candidate Terry McAuliffe called for the commonwealth to “diversify” its teacher base, complaining that too many educators there are white. - https://nypost.com/2021/11/01/mcauliffe-laments-number-of-white-teachers-ahead-of-gov-vote/ https://nypost.com/2021/11/01/mcauliffe-laments-number-of-wh... England manager Sarina Wiegman says "we need to do more" to improve diversity in English women's football. - https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/63585482 https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/63585482 Why America needs more diversity in the doctor's office - https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2023-08-04/why-america-needs-more-diversity-in-the-doctors-office https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2023-08-04/why-ameri... 'Why is climate activism so middle class and white?' - https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-leicestershire-51873499 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-leicestershire-518734... We need to face uncomfortable truths about diversity in our medical workforce - https://www.bmj.com/content/388/bmj.r293 https://www.bmj.com/content/388/bmj.r293 When non-whites are over-represented in a profession, this shows the necessity of diversity and immigration, and we should be grateful for their valuable contributions. When whites are over-represented, this is because of racism and discrimination and we need to do more to reduce their number.

eesmith 2y ago
My specific point was: why do you think a news article about 36 FTP inquiries in Ireland was at all relevant? A spot check of the diversity links shows they all compare the statistics to the local, endogenous population. There is no reason to believe the white population of Virginia are intrinsically better teachers than the non-white population, and much evidence which shows systemic issues causing that discrepancy. The emigration of doctors to the UK refers to an exogenous and relatively mobile population. With 68M people in the UK and 8.2B people worldwide, foreign-trained doctors are highly underrepresented in the UK workplace. Do note that your BMJ article highlights how many of those foreigner doctors are not black - "diversity" isn't a single axis. In my own field, which is very specialized, most industrial-level research groups have a foreigner population far exceeding the local population because there aren't many people in the world who are interested it in, there aren't many places to get PhD-level education in it, and there aren't many places where you can be employed ... but those few companies will pay well for expertise and deal with visas. This makes for a highly mobile and global workforce. If you want more British people in the NHS, look first to your penurious politicians who have been outsourcing medical training to other countries as a way to further enrich the rich. Raise taxes (progressively on the rich) to increase NHS funding, provide better training and support for NHS staff, improve the pipeline to bring students into the medical field, including removing tuition fees. Simply shutting off immigration won't fix those systemic issues, and this article is about the problems which will happen if you do that.
- like_any_other 2y ago
  > If you want more British people in the NHS, look first to your penurious politicians who have been outsourcing medical training to other countries as a way to further enrich the rich. They've been doing more than that - as two of the articles show, they've been discriminating against natives in both medical education and hiring. > Simply shutting off immigration won't fix those systemic issues, and this article is about the problems which will happen if you do that. I rather think they don't want to fix those issues as an excuse to maintain mass immigration. Both Labour and Tory actions are consistent with that hypothesis.
  - eesmith 2y ago
    Since you've ignored my direct question, you encourage me to assume you don't care about the data but are cherry-picking citations which affirm your beliefs. To double check, by "native" you do mean people born in Britain, right? Like, a British woman born in Birmingham whose parents were born in Pakistan is a ethnic minority who is a native, right? The discrimination in those two articles appears to be on the basis of economics, not specifically ethnicity. To give an example from Florida, Tarpon Springs has a lot of people with Greek ancestry because over a century ago their ancestors immigrated there to work in the sponge industry. It was cheaper to bring in experienced divers from Greece than to train local people. The local demographics are still very different from the rest of the state. Your Sun citation does not say why the 700 Brit students were denied a place at medical schools. Was there space and funding for them? The "it will take a decade for extra places at medical school to produce more doctors" suggests there is not space. Your Telegraph article concerns hiring white people vs. an ethnic minority candidate. It says nothing about prioritizing foreigners over people born in Britain. Of only white British people are native then the Sun article doesn't say how many of the 700 Brit students denied a place were white or ethnic. It doesn't even say how many are foreigners. > as an excuse to maintain mass immigration That's a red herring. Even if they shut down immigration to a trickle, you know they are going to include medical staff as a special exception, right? That demand is already the reason why doctors have relatively mobile world-wide employment.
    - 2y ago

eesmith 2y ago

My specific point was: why do you think a news article about 36 FTP inquiries in Ireland was at all relevant? A spot check of the diversity links shows they all compare the statistics to the local, endogenous population. There is no reason to believe the white population of Virginia are intrinsically better teachers than the non-white population, and much evidence which shows systemic issues causing that discrepancy. The emigration of doctors to the UK refers to an exogenous and relatively mobile population. With 68M people in the UK and 8.2B people worldwide, foreign-trained doctors are highly underrepresented in the UK workplace. Do note that your BMJ article highlights how many of those foreigner doctors are not black - "diversity" isn't a single axis. In my own field, which is very specialized, most industrial-level research groups have a foreigner population far exceeding the local population because there aren't many people in the world who are interested it in, there aren't many places to get PhD-level education in it, and there aren't many places where you can be employed ... but those few companies will pay well for expertise and deal with visas. This makes for a highly mobile and global workforce. If you want more British people in the NHS, look first to your penurious politicians who have been outsourcing medical training to other countries as a way to further enrich the rich. Raise taxes (progressively on the rich) to increase NHS funding, provide better training and support for NHS staff, improve the pipeline to bring students into the medical field, including removing tuition fees. Simply shutting off immigration won't fix those systemic issues, and this article is about the problems which will happen if you do that.

like_any_other 2y ago
> If you want more British people in the NHS, look first to your penurious politicians who have been outsourcing medical training to other countries as a way to further enrich the rich. They've been doing more than that - as two of the articles show, they've been discriminating against natives in both medical education and hiring. > Simply shutting off immigration won't fix those systemic issues, and this article is about the problems which will happen if you do that. I rather think they don't want to fix those issues as an excuse to maintain mass immigration. Both Labour and Tory actions are consistent with that hypothesis.
- eesmith 2y ago
  Since you've ignored my direct question, you encourage me to assume you don't care about the data but are cherry-picking citations which affirm your beliefs. To double check, by "native" you do mean people born in Britain, right? Like, a British woman born in Birmingham whose parents were born in Pakistan is a ethnic minority who is a native, right? The discrimination in those two articles appears to be on the basis of economics, not specifically ethnicity. To give an example from Florida, Tarpon Springs has a lot of people with Greek ancestry because over a century ago their ancestors immigrated there to work in the sponge industry. It was cheaper to bring in experienced divers from Greece than to train local people. The local demographics are still very different from the rest of the state. Your Sun citation does not say why the 700 Brit students were denied a place at medical schools. Was there space and funding for them? The "it will take a decade for extra places at medical school to produce more doctors" suggests there is not space. Your Telegraph article concerns hiring white people vs. an ethnic minority candidate. It says nothing about prioritizing foreigners over people born in Britain. Of only white British people are native then the Sun article doesn't say how many of the 700 Brit students denied a place were white or ethnic. It doesn't even say how many are foreigners. > as an excuse to maintain mass immigration That's a red herring. Even if they shut down immigration to a trickle, you know they are going to include medical staff as a special exception, right? That demand is already the reason why doctors have relatively mobile world-wide employment.
  - 2y ago