5 ms·

You have misread your sources. The 32% is for doctors, the 19% is for all staff. You wrote "But it must be a much broader category than immigrant, because only

You have misread your sources. The 32% is for doctors, the 19% is for all staff. You wrote "But it must be a much broader category than immigrant, because only 19% [of UK doctors] are foreign nationals, and only 14% are from outside the EU [1]" Your [1] says "Overall, 18.7% of staff report a nationality other than British. For doctors this figure is 35.0%, and for nurses it is 27.2%." Your The Sun uses the same number: "Official figures reveal more than a third of the 113,000 doctors working in hospitals in England now come from abroad." Instead of spending time to post 8 or so different links, it took me about a minute to find the OECD study at https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/recent-trends-in-international-migration-of-doctors-nurses-and-medical-students_5571ef48-en.html https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/recent-trends-in-intern... which defines foreign-trained as people who received their first medical or nursing in another country, noting that "a certain number of foreign-trained doctors or nurses may be people who were born in a country and decided to pursue their studies in another country before returning to their home country". How is a summary of the 36 FTP inquiries in Ireland in 2010 at all relevant? It comes across like you've spread a wide net to bring up any anti-foreigner sources, while likely omitting all pro-foreigner sources.

like_any_other 2y ago
I concede my error on the statistics, thank you for catching it. > It comes across like you've spread a wide net to bring up any anti-foreigner sources, while likely omitting all pro-foreigner sources. Sure, let me show you some pro-foreigner, or rather, pro-diversity sources (I hope you don't mind examples from across the pond): America’s schools are more diverse than ever. But the teachers are still mostly white. - https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/local/education/teacher-diversity/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/local/education... Democratic Virginia gubernatorial candidate Terry McAuliffe called for the commonwealth to “diversify” its teacher base, complaining that too many educators there are white. - https://nypost.com/2021/11/01/mcauliffe-laments-number-of-white-teachers-ahead-of-gov-vote/ https://nypost.com/2021/11/01/mcauliffe-laments-number-of-wh... England manager Sarina Wiegman says "we need to do more" to improve diversity in English women's football. - https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/63585482 https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/63585482 Why America needs more diversity in the doctor's office - https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2023-08-04/why-america-needs-more-diversity-in-the-doctors-office https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2023-08-04/why-ameri... 'Why is climate activism so middle class and white?' - https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-leicestershire-51873499 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-leicestershire-518734... We need to face uncomfortable truths about diversity in our medical workforce - https://www.bmj.com/content/388/bmj.r293 https://www.bmj.com/content/388/bmj.r293 When non-whites are over-represented in a profession, this shows the necessity of diversity and immigration, and we should be grateful for their valuable contributions. When whites are over-represented, this is because of racism and discrimination and we need to do more to reduce their number.
- eesmith 2y ago
  My specific point was: why do you think a news article about 36 FTP inquiries in Ireland was at all relevant? A spot check of the diversity links shows they all compare the statistics to the local, endogenous population. There is no reason to believe the white population of Virginia are intrinsically better teachers than the non-white population, and much evidence which shows systemic issues causing that discrepancy. The emigration of doctors to the UK refers to an exogenous and relatively mobile population. With 68M people in the UK and 8.2B people worldwide, foreign-trained doctors are highly underrepresented in the UK workplace. Do note that your BMJ article highlights how many of those foreigner doctors are not black - "diversity" isn't a single axis. In my own field, which is very specialized, most industrial-level research groups have a foreigner population far exceeding the local population because there aren't many people in the world who are interested it in, there aren't many places to get PhD-level education in it, and there aren't many places where you can be employed ... but those few companies will pay well for expertise and deal with visas. This makes for a highly mobile and global workforce. If you want more British people in the NHS, look first to your penurious politicians who have been outsourcing medical training to other countries as a way to further enrich the rich. Raise taxes (progressively on the rich) to increase NHS funding, provide better training and support for NHS staff, improve the pipeline to bring students into the medical field, including removing tuition fees. Simply shutting off immigration won't fix those systemic issues, and this article is about the problems which will happen if you do that.
  - like_any_other 2y ago
    > If you want more British people in the NHS, look first to your penurious politicians who have been outsourcing medical training to other countries as a way to further enrich the rich. They've been doing more than that - as two of the articles show, they've been discriminating against natives in both medical education and hiring. > Simply shutting off immigration won't fix those systemic issues, and this article is about the problems which will happen if you do that. I rather think they don't want to fix those issues as an excuse to maintain mass immigration. Both Labour and Tory actions are consistent with that hypothesis.

like_any_other 2y ago

I concede my error on the statistics, thank you for catching it. > It comes across like you've spread a wide net to bring up any anti-foreigner sources, while likely omitting all pro-foreigner sources. Sure, let me show you some pro-foreigner, or rather, pro-diversity sources (I hope you don't mind examples from across the pond): America’s schools are more diverse than ever. But the teachers are still mostly white. - https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/local/education/teacher-diversity/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/local/education... Democratic Virginia gubernatorial candidate Terry McAuliffe called for the commonwealth to “diversify” its teacher base, complaining that too many educators there are white. - https://nypost.com/2021/11/01/mcauliffe-laments-number-of-white-teachers-ahead-of-gov-vote/ https://nypost.com/2021/11/01/mcauliffe-laments-number-of-wh... England manager Sarina Wiegman says "we need to do more" to improve diversity in English women's football. - https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/63585482 https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/63585482 Why America needs more diversity in the doctor's office - https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2023-08-04/why-america-needs-more-diversity-in-the-doctors-office https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2023-08-04/why-ameri... 'Why is climate activism so middle class and white?' - https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-leicestershire-51873499 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-leicestershire-518734... We need to face uncomfortable truths about diversity in our medical workforce - https://www.bmj.com/content/388/bmj.r293 https://www.bmj.com/content/388/bmj.r293 When non-whites are over-represented in a profession, this shows the necessity of diversity and immigration, and we should be grateful for their valuable contributions. When whites are over-represented, this is because of racism and discrimination and we need to do more to reduce their number.

eesmith 2y ago
My specific point was: why do you think a news article about 36 FTP inquiries in Ireland was at all relevant? A spot check of the diversity links shows they all compare the statistics to the local, endogenous population. There is no reason to believe the white population of Virginia are intrinsically better teachers than the non-white population, and much evidence which shows systemic issues causing that discrepancy. The emigration of doctors to the UK refers to an exogenous and relatively mobile population. With 68M people in the UK and 8.2B people worldwide, foreign-trained doctors are highly underrepresented in the UK workplace. Do note that your BMJ article highlights how many of those foreigner doctors are not black - "diversity" isn't a single axis. In my own field, which is very specialized, most industrial-level research groups have a foreigner population far exceeding the local population because there aren't many people in the world who are interested it in, there aren't many places to get PhD-level education in it, and there aren't many places where you can be employed ... but those few companies will pay well for expertise and deal with visas. This makes for a highly mobile and global workforce. If you want more British people in the NHS, look first to your penurious politicians who have been outsourcing medical training to other countries as a way to further enrich the rich. Raise taxes (progressively on the rich) to increase NHS funding, provide better training and support for NHS staff, improve the pipeline to bring students into the medical field, including removing tuition fees. Simply shutting off immigration won't fix those systemic issues, and this article is about the problems which will happen if you do that.
- like_any_other 2y ago
  > If you want more British people in the NHS, look first to your penurious politicians who have been outsourcing medical training to other countries as a way to further enrich the rich. They've been doing more than that - as two of the articles show, they've been discriminating against natives in both medical education and hiring. > Simply shutting off immigration won't fix those systemic issues, and this article is about the problems which will happen if you do that. I rather think they don't want to fix those issues as an excuse to maintain mass immigration. Both Labour and Tory actions are consistent with that hypothesis.