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99.99% of people are exposed to math as multiplication tables, algebra, and geometry. I don't let that bother me when I need Fourier and Laplace, and I'm not in

99.99% of people are exposed to math as multiplication tables, algebra, and geometry. I don't let that bother me when I need Fourier and Laplace, and I'm not interested in making others accept that there is more to these fields than what they learned in primary school. It's just very funny. I couldn't imagine being an adult and stubbornly insisting that you don't like the spaghetti because it's not how your mom made it for you and that's the only way spaghetti is supposed to be made. This sort of self-centered and yet entirely unselfconscious world view where you never question why you think such definitions and boundaries are fundamental truths, eternal and unbending.

taeric 2y ago
I get your point, but I do have to ask what differentiates poetry from prose, in this definition?
- nickelpro 2y ago
  These are elements of genre, any taxonomy of human expression naturally escapes the ability to be concretely defined. You can no more give a succinct, definitive differentiation between prose and poetry than you can between Rock&Roll and Pop music, or between Modernist and Expressionist painting. To wit, you'll find there's a large amount of literature about "prose poetry", the most well known form being free verse. The idea being to capture or express some elements of poetry outside merely rhyme and meter. Which elements? How many are required to be considered "real" poetry? I can no more define that than Justice Stewart could define pornography [1]. This obsession with strict taxonomy is itself a shibboleth of the juvenile. What value does strict differentiation provide, if one exists at all? It is a poem because I deign it to be so, and my friends understand what I mean when say this thing I have made is a poem and that thing I have made is a short story. There are a set of characteristics these labels may imply (and such implications make them useful), but none are required, some may even be mutually exclusive. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it
  - milesrout 2y ago
    Even if we accept your claim that you can't draw hard boundaries (I actually strongly disagree), you can still draw boundaries. Words have meanings even if those meanings are a bit fuzzy. I don't care about the names of logical fallacies but your argument is fallacious: we can't draw a hard boundary, therefore anything qualifies. There are lots of things that clearly are not poems. Mona Lisa is not a poem. GCC is not a poem. Wikipedia is not a poem. There are also lots of things that clearly are poems. My claim is not that when you draw a hard boundary these things are technically not poems because they sit just outside the line, but that if you have any sort of boundary at all then they aren't even close. You say quite rightly that there are sets of characteristics that a label may imply. You don't need all of them, or any particular one, but you need something. Nothing about these "poems" is poetic. They have nothing in common with poetry. And no "evokes feeling" is not a characteristic of poetry, it is a characteristic of art generally. They might be art, but many written things exist that are not art, like short stories and novels. If I wrote a 70000 word novel and called it a poem, I would obviously be trolling, but by your logic there is no reason it couldn't be. That's just stupid. >It is a poem because I deign it to be so, Because to you deign it to be what? What do you deign it to be? You can't just say poem, I am asking you what you mean when you say the word poem. Circular answers will not be accepted.
    - nickelpro 2y ago
      I would accept that medium can be well defined. We can say an oil painting is not a macaroni sculpture with a high degree of certainty. Within the medium though, no I don't think you can make such defining lines in genre, in categories of artistic composition. I would say "evokes feeling" is absolutely a characteristic of a poem. Slam poetry is often characterized by the performance, the visceral experience, more than anything about rhythm, rhyming, or meter. Epics [1] are one of the oldest forms of poetry. A 70000 word narrative can not only be a poem, such works are some of the oldest artistic expressions in human history. > Because to you deign it to be what? A poem. And my friends understand what I mean when I say that. That you don't understand is hardly my concern, like I said I find this amusing, convincing you is not a goal of mine. The purpose of such categories, their only value, is to be understood by the communities which use them. Whether David Bowie's 1980 album Scary Monsters is art rock or post-punk has no real bearing on the album itself, no value beyond being understood by those discussing it. We can take this one step further, and say that the community of milesrouts rejects such labels and has a different understanding of these words, a different set of values they choose to express, and this too is a valuable thing to recognize. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_poetry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_poetry

taeric 2y ago

I get your point, but I do have to ask what differentiates poetry from prose, in this definition?

nickelpro 2y ago
These are elements of genre, any taxonomy of human expression naturally escapes the ability to be concretely defined. You can no more give a succinct, definitive differentiation between prose and poetry than you can between Rock&Roll and Pop music, or between Modernist and Expressionist painting. To wit, you'll find there's a large amount of literature about "prose poetry", the most well known form being free verse. The idea being to capture or express some elements of poetry outside merely rhyme and meter. Which elements? How many are required to be considered "real" poetry? I can no more define that than Justice Stewart could define pornography [1]. This obsession with strict taxonomy is itself a shibboleth of the juvenile. What value does strict differentiation provide, if one exists at all? It is a poem because I deign it to be so, and my friends understand what I mean when say this thing I have made is a poem and that thing I have made is a short story. There are a set of characteristics these labels may imply (and such implications make them useful), but none are required, some may even be mutually exclusive. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it
- milesrout 2y ago
  Even if we accept your claim that you can't draw hard boundaries (I actually strongly disagree), you can still draw boundaries. Words have meanings even if those meanings are a bit fuzzy. I don't care about the names of logical fallacies but your argument is fallacious: we can't draw a hard boundary, therefore anything qualifies. There are lots of things that clearly are not poems. Mona Lisa is not a poem. GCC is not a poem. Wikipedia is not a poem. There are also lots of things that clearly are poems. My claim is not that when you draw a hard boundary these things are technically not poems because they sit just outside the line, but that if you have any sort of boundary at all then they aren't even close. You say quite rightly that there are sets of characteristics that a label may imply. You don't need all of them, or any particular one, but you need something. Nothing about these "poems" is poetic. They have nothing in common with poetry. And no "evokes feeling" is not a characteristic of poetry, it is a characteristic of art generally. They might be art, but many written things exist that are not art, like short stories and novels. If I wrote a 70000 word novel and called it a poem, I would obviously be trolling, but by your logic there is no reason it couldn't be. That's just stupid. >It is a poem because I deign it to be so, Because to you deign it to be what? What do you deign it to be? You can't just say poem, I am asking you what you mean when you say the word poem. Circular answers will not be accepted.
  - nickelpro 2y ago
    I would accept that medium can be well defined. We can say an oil painting is not a macaroni sculpture with a high degree of certainty. Within the medium though, no I don't think you can make such defining lines in genre, in categories of artistic composition. I would say "evokes feeling" is absolutely a characteristic of a poem. Slam poetry is often characterized by the performance, the visceral experience, more than anything about rhythm, rhyming, or meter. Epics [1] are one of the oldest forms of poetry. A 70000 word narrative can not only be a poem, such works are some of the oldest artistic expressions in human history. > Because to you deign it to be what? A poem. And my friends understand what I mean when I say that. That you don't understand is hardly my concern, like I said I find this amusing, convincing you is not a goal of mine. The purpose of such categories, their only value, is to be understood by the communities which use them. Whether David Bowie's 1980 album Scary Monsters is art rock or post-punk has no real bearing on the album itself, no value beyond being understood by those discussing it. We can take this one step further, and say that the community of milesrouts rejects such labels and has a different understanding of these words, a different set of values they choose to express, and this too is a valuable thing to recognize. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_poetry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_poetry