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I flagged because I can’t stand this overly moralising cancel culture attitude. This exact tech is already commonplace in industry, but no one is trying to fin

I flagged because I can’t stand this overly moralising cancel culture attitude. This exact tech is already commonplace in industry, but no one is trying to find an industry wide solution, just taking cheap pot shots that the nth startup doing the same thing. If you don’t like what this startup is doing, build something better instead of virtue signalling here.

nurettin 2y ago
That statement makes no sense. Flagging is cancelling. You are what you can't stand.
- b112 2y ago
  Bob is repeatedly punching Jon in the head, for invalid reasons. Pete, seeing this, runs up and belts Bob to protect Jon. Are these acts the same?
  - nurettin 2y ago
    Pretty much, yes. I'm surprised you don't spot belting to be an equally violent action.
    - b112 2y ago
      It is violent, but intent is everything. Blowing up a building because you're a mobster, and you're "sending a message", is different from a demolition crew doing the same to make way for a new building. You should really rethink what you're saying. An act is a wholesome, contextualize thing. It does not live in a vacuum. By your measure, a sexual predator grabbing a woman's vagina and a doctor examing a female patient are identical. This is a broken mental map of the world.
      - nurettin 2y ago
        [flagged]
    - dredmorbius 2y ago
      A surgeon and an assassin both wield a blade, and both occasionally kill. Their intent and motives differ strongly. Mens rea exists because reasons. (This is also why surgeons generally request a statement of consent to medical procedures from the patient, where that's tractable, or by a representative --- parent, guardian, someone granted power of attorney, etc --- where the patient themselves is incapable of consent. There are still some loose edges, but this itself is a significant though not sole distinction between the two roles noted.)
- dang 2y ago
  > You are what you can't stand. Wow - did you come up with that or is it a quote? That's a great line. (this is apropos of nothing related to the current story - it just strikes my interests)
  - nurettin 2y ago
    I just said something I thought was factual. It's just six words, someone probably said it before me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    The observation has strong parallels to the notion that true organisational values are identified by what is rewarded or punished, rather than written "mission statements" or "statements of values". As was noted on a recent Complexity podcast episode (Santa Fe Institute, highly recommended), one of the challenges of language is that whilst it makes communications more powerful, it also hugely facilitates lying. I remember the organisational observation making the rounds ... maybe a decade ago (I recall it probably being on Google+ back when that was A Thing), and though this all but certainly isn't the original, it's strongly similar in sentiments: Company values are invisible – what's rewarded and punished shouldn't (2023) <https://www.fearlessculture.design/blog-posts/your-culture-is-the-behaviors-you-reward-and-punish https://www.fearlessculture.design/blog-posts/your-culture-i...> And of course HN had a similar submission 8 years ago, though w/o discussion: "Culture Is the Behavior You Reward and Punish" (2017) <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13751865 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13751865> <https://jocelyngoldfein.com/culture-is-the-behavior-you-reward-and-punish-7e8e75c6543e#.e28ozvdaw https://jocelyngoldfein.com/culture-is-the-behavior-you-rewa...> Similar notions are that you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with (of questionable veracity, though fairly high popularity), see: <https://quoteinvestigator.com/2022/08/08/five-people/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2022/08/08/five-people/>. There's the notion that a person, particularly a creative person (artist, musician, author, programmer, experimenter/tinkerer, tailor, soldier, spy, wups, wrong espionage meme) is what they can't not do. Going back to G+, an observation I'd had on follow + blocking behaviour there was that social network landscapes are defined by the pathways along with information flows with greater or lesser impedence. G+ had a fairly strong block in which a block action (unilateral or reciprocated) meanth that neither party could directly see or interact with the others' content, at least whilst authenticated to the system. (The fact that logging out permitted visibility of otherwise public content meant of course that "blocking" was not an effective mechanism for preventing some adversarial relation from finding out what you were posting so long as that activity was public. But both in terms of blocks by/against myself, and between other accounts, there was an interesting and somewhat fractured state of discussions particularly in what I've termed "salon" threads: a reasonably gregarious host, with diligent thread hygiene, who tended to attract a broad range of participants and lively discussion. The blocking actions would tend to segment that discussion in ways I still find fascinating. Which is unrelated to the original comment and observation, though it comes up in context, at least here and now ;-)
santoshalper 2y ago
If you don't like evil, you should do something not evil. But also, you shouldn't tell evil people that you don't like what they're doing, because that might hurt their feelings.
tavavex 2y ago
The "overly moralising cancel culture" statement doesn't really prove anything here. "overly moralising" just says that you seem to disagree with all arguments based on 'too much morals', with no justification of why those arguments are bad or why using 'morals' is misguided. "cancel culture" means that you disagree with people trying to get things shut down, again, with no justification. This is just the culture war word salad of the decade, because there's no underlying point - just an attempt to wrap all the things people disagree with into one easy-to-dismiss package. And no, this issue isn't something you can out-compete. Authority figures notably love surveillance - no matter if it's your government, a tech megacorp or a manager at a factory. There's no alternative solution that provides the same hit of power and control like surveillance. Social pushback is the only remaining way.

nurettin 2y ago

That statement makes no sense. Flagging is cancelling. You are what you can't stand.

b112 2y ago
Bob is repeatedly punching Jon in the head, for invalid reasons. Pete, seeing this, runs up and belts Bob to protect Jon. Are these acts the same?
- nurettin 2y ago
  Pretty much, yes. I'm surprised you don't spot belting to be an equally violent action.
  - b112 2y ago
    It is violent, but intent is everything. Blowing up a building because you're a mobster, and you're "sending a message", is different from a demolition crew doing the same to make way for a new building. You should really rethink what you're saying. An act is a wholesome, contextualize thing. It does not live in a vacuum. By your measure, a sexual predator grabbing a woman's vagina and a doctor examing a female patient are identical. This is a broken mental map of the world.
    - nurettin 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    A surgeon and an assassin both wield a blade, and both occasionally kill. Their intent and motives differ strongly. Mens rea exists because reasons. (This is also why surgeons generally request a statement of consent to medical procedures from the patient, where that's tractable, or by a representative --- parent, guardian, someone granted power of attorney, etc --- where the patient themselves is incapable of consent. There are still some loose edges, but this itself is a significant though not sole distinction between the two roles noted.)
dang 2y ago
> You are what you can't stand. Wow - did you come up with that or is it a quote? That's a great line. (this is apropos of nothing related to the current story - it just strikes my interests)
- nurettin 2y ago
  I just said something I thought was factual. It's just six words, someone probably said it before me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  The observation has strong parallels to the notion that true organisational values are identified by what is rewarded or punished, rather than written "mission statements" or "statements of values". As was noted on a recent Complexity podcast episode (Santa Fe Institute, highly recommended), one of the challenges of language is that whilst it makes communications more powerful, it also hugely facilitates lying. I remember the organisational observation making the rounds ... maybe a decade ago (I recall it probably being on Google+ back when that was A Thing), and though this all but certainly isn't the original, it's strongly similar in sentiments: Company values are invisible – what's rewarded and punished shouldn't (2023) <https://www.fearlessculture.design/blog-posts/your-culture-is-the-behaviors-you-reward-and-punish https://www.fearlessculture.design/blog-posts/your-culture-i...> And of course HN had a similar submission 8 years ago, though w/o discussion: "Culture Is the Behavior You Reward and Punish" (2017) <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13751865 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13751865> <https://jocelyngoldfein.com/culture-is-the-behavior-you-reward-and-punish-7e8e75c6543e#.e28ozvdaw https://jocelyngoldfein.com/culture-is-the-behavior-you-rewa...> Similar notions are that you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with (of questionable veracity, though fairly high popularity), see: <https://quoteinvestigator.com/2022/08/08/five-people/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2022/08/08/five-people/>. There's the notion that a person, particularly a creative person (artist, musician, author, programmer, experimenter/tinkerer, tailor, soldier, spy, wups, wrong espionage meme) is what they can't not do. Going back to G+, an observation I'd had on follow + blocking behaviour there was that social network landscapes are defined by the pathways along with information flows with greater or lesser impedence. G+ had a fairly strong block in which a block action (unilateral or reciprocated) meanth that neither party could directly see or interact with the others' content, at least whilst authenticated to the system. (The fact that logging out permitted visibility of otherwise public content meant of course that "blocking" was not an effective mechanism for preventing some adversarial relation from finding out what you were posting so long as that activity was public. But both in terms of blocks by/against myself, and between other accounts, there was an interesting and somewhat fractured state of discussions particularly in what I've termed "salon" threads: a reasonably gregarious host, with diligent thread hygiene, who tended to attract a broad range of participants and lively discussion. The blocking actions would tend to segment that discussion in ways I still find fascinating. Which is unrelated to the original comment and observation, though it comes up in context, at least here and now ;-)

santoshalper 2y ago

If you don't like evil, you should do something not evil. But also, you shouldn't tell evil people that you don't like what they're doing, because that might hurt their feelings.

tavavex 2y ago

The "overly moralising cancel culture" statement doesn't really prove anything here. "overly moralising" just says that you seem to disagree with all arguments based on 'too much morals', with no justification of why those arguments are bad or why using 'morals' is misguided. "cancel culture" means that you disagree with people trying to get things shut down, again, with no justification. This is just the culture war word salad of the decade, because there's no underlying point - just an attempt to wrap all the things people disagree with into one easy-to-dismiss package. And no, this issue isn't something you can out-compete. Authority figures notably love surveillance - no matter if it's your government, a tech megacorp or a manager at a factory. There's no alternative solution that provides the same hit of power and control like surveillance. Social pushback is the only remaining way.