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> And I don't think I disagree with the court on schema vs. file layouts either. I disagree that the law should prohibit disclosing "file layouts" but it's pre

> And I don't think I disagree with the court on schema vs. file layouts either. I disagree that the law should prohibit disclosing "file layouts" but it's pretty clear that the law does block that, and I fundamentally agree with you that schemas are directly analogous to file layouts and thus restricted.

tptacek 2y ago
A SQL schema literally does not indicate the locations of data inside of a file. In fact, the whole reason schemas exist is to decouple the relationships between table rows and the pages and indexes that store that data. We had relational databases before SQL, and there are non-SQL relational (and non-relational) databases today, but you program them, at the query level, with code that is aware of what tables live where. A schema is the opposite of a file layout. A schema is to a file layout what a Google search is to an IP address.
- HDThoreaun 2y ago
  I dont think "file layout" has to mean the exact location of every byte. An abstract file layout is still a file layout.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    It is in literally no sense a layout; the whole point of a schema is that it doesn't tie you down to a layout. SQL schemas make sense even in the absence of files!
    - maratc 2y ago
      You suggest that we interpret "file formats" as exactly this -- no more, no less. This approach is also called "textualism". The other option is to interpret "file formats" in the context of the law that includes these words. Or: what exactly did the lawmakers have in mind when they said that (a) government needs to provide information; (b) except for several cases, of which one is (c) "file formats". What kind of information did they think it was ok for the government not to provide? I agree with the Court's argument that "the information about how the actual information is stored and connected one piece to another" is what the lawmakers meant in this case. - If the actual information is stored in the files, the government does not need to disclose how these files are organized ("file formats"). - If the actual information is stored in the database, the government does not need to disclose how the database is organized (database schema). - If the actual information is stored in the block memory -- with structs and pointers -- the government does not need to disclose the structs and the pointers. The "textualist" opponent would of course argue, as OP did, that the second and the third example aren't excepted by clause (c) because "when there is no file, there could be no file format". This however is missing the point (in my opinion), as it doesn't see the forest for the trees.
  - Xelynega 2y ago
    How can you literally interpret the two words "file layout" without it pertaining to the layout of a file?
    - maratc 2y ago
      We can successfully interpret the two words “guinea pig” without it pertaining to either pigs or things coming from Guinea, so I’m sure this is also possible.
    - numpad0 2y ago
      DBs can be files on disk though? Besides they're a bit like easy hand rolling powder mix for filesystems. Filesystem entries has properties like filenames and inode numbers and file contents. Databases has columns like emails and membership IDs and their favorite cookies. I don't think "file layout" is an absurd framing.
    - eru 2y ago
      I'm not sure whether 'file' necessarily has to refer to the 'Unix' view of a 'sequence of bytes'? Or just 'some organisational unit of information'? Ie like the stuff you would put into a filing cabinet? The 'sequence of bytes' view is just one specific level of abstraction. It's not what's actually on disk because of things like compression, encryption and fragmentation. Database schemas are a different level of abstraction.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- dataflow 2y ago
  Let me put this differently. If you tell me that you have a closet for your jackets and another closet for your shirts, you're telling me how clothes are laid out in your wardrobe. Specifically, you're telling me that you're laying those out separately, and able to deal with them independently, with little interference between the two. It's not the entirety of the layout information, but it sure is some of it. If you tell me that you have a column for your first names and another column for your last names, you're telling me how names are laid out in your database('s files). Specifically, you're telling me that you're laying those out separately, and able to deal with them independently, with little interference between the two. It's not the entirety of the layout information, but it sure is some of it. Sure -- in theory, you could be actually throwing everything together into a dumpster, then paying enough people to search it all in parallel when you want to retrieve that red jacket. If you're actually doing that, maybe you could legitimately claim that you haven't divulged anything about your closet's layout by telling me that shirts and jackets are separate. But chances are pretty darn good you're not actually doing that (and I would know this for a fact if I already somehow knew you were actually using closets built by Joe down the street), and thus actually are exposing layout information by telling me that you're storing them separately. One security implication of which is that, the moment that I get a glimpse of your closet and notice that it contains a shirt, I know it's not the one with the jackets, and I can skip it when trying to steal that expensive red jacket.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    It's either a file layout or it is not a file layout. If you write an affidavit saying it's "sort of like a file layout", the conclusion will be that it is not one. Now, the Illinois Supreme Court found that it was a file layout (wrongly). But they didn't use any of this kind of message board logic to do it; they pulled up a definition for "file layout" from a technical dictionary (which, ironically, pretty clearly established, even more than this thread does, that schemas aren't file layouts), and then they pulled up a definition of "schema" from Mirriam-Webster, and the definition of "schema" was so abstract it could have matched anything. If anybody on the Illinois Supreme Court had known what a schema actually was, we'd have won the case. Further, if the definition of "file layout" had been more material to the Chancery case, it would have been in the trial record that it wasn't one.
- eru 2y ago
  > A SQL schema literally does not indicate the locations of data inside of a file. That's only true if you apply eg the Unix definition of what a file on a file system is (like a sequence of bytes or whatever). For all we know, the law might take a broader view. Something like: a 'file' is anything that in the olden days you would have stuck into a filing cabinet. The 'Unix' definition isn't even particularly natural: it's one specific level of abstraction. On disk, the bytes aren't necessarily laid out one after another. Especially with fragmentation, compression and encryption going on. An SQL schema tells you how data is laid out in a different layer of abstraction than the Unix view of bytes. But that view isn't the only one that the law can mean by 'file'.
WatchDog 2y ago
It seems like an unnecessarily ambiguous term. Without additional context, I would interpret the term “file layout” to mean the file and directory structure of an application. Such an application could potentially store data as plain files, the names of those files may contain personal or sensitive information.
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  > Without additional context, I would interpret the term “file layout” to mean the file and directory structure of an application. I would interpret it to mean a description of what the file contains and where. This is information you need if you have a mysterious file and you want to parse it. It's also information you need if you have some data and you want to create a readable file that expresses it. But for the concept to apply to a database schema, (a) the database would have to be a file, and (b) the schema would have to specify where the information in the database is stored. That's difficult to do, since the schema has no knowledge of how much information there is in the database or how it might be written down.
- AdamJacobMuller 2y ago
  > It seems like an unnecessarily ambiguous term. Agree, and, I don't even understand why it's in there in the first place (it should just not be) but that's a job for the legislature to resolve, not the courts.
dataflow 2y ago
>> And I don't think I disagree with the court on schema vs. file layouts either. > I disagree that the law should prohibit disclosing "file layouts" Note, the court wasn't ruling what the law should say, only what the law says. At least that's my understanding of it. I certainly wasn't opining on what the law should say.
- AdamJacobMuller 2y ago
  Understood. I mention that distinction only because I find many people (not you) who say that "X law doesn't apply because if it did, it would be bad" vs directing your ire at the actual laws, which are poorly written and the legislators who are negligent in fixing those laws. Courts should decide based on the law, not based on what is "good".

tptacek 2y ago

A SQL schema literally does not indicate the locations of data inside of a file. In fact, the whole reason schemas exist is to decouple the relationships between table rows and the pages and indexes that store that data. We had relational databases before SQL, and there are non-SQL relational (and non-relational) databases today, but you program them, at the query level, with code that is aware of what tables live where. A schema is the opposite of a file layout. A schema is to a file layout what a Google search is to an IP address.

HDThoreaun 2y ago
I dont think "file layout" has to mean the exact location of every byte. An abstract file layout is still a file layout.
- tptacek 2y ago
  It is in literally no sense a layout; the whole point of a schema is that it doesn't tie you down to a layout. SQL schemas make sense even in the absence of files!
  - maratc 2y ago
    You suggest that we interpret "file formats" as exactly this -- no more, no less. This approach is also called "textualism". The other option is to interpret "file formats" in the context of the law that includes these words. Or: what exactly did the lawmakers have in mind when they said that (a) government needs to provide information; (b) except for several cases, of which one is (c) "file formats". What kind of information did they think it was ok for the government not to provide? I agree with the Court's argument that "the information about how the actual information is stored and connected one piece to another" is what the lawmakers meant in this case. - If the actual information is stored in the files, the government does not need to disclose how these files are organized ("file formats"). - If the actual information is stored in the database, the government does not need to disclose how the database is organized (database schema). - If the actual information is stored in the block memory -- with structs and pointers -- the government does not need to disclose the structs and the pointers. The "textualist" opponent would of course argue, as OP did, that the second and the third example aren't excepted by clause (c) because "when there is no file, there could be no file format". This however is missing the point (in my opinion), as it doesn't see the forest for the trees.
- Xelynega 2y ago
  How can you literally interpret the two words "file layout" without it pertaining to the layout of a file?
  - maratc 2y ago
    We can successfully interpret the two words “guinea pig” without it pertaining to either pigs or things coming from Guinea, so I’m sure this is also possible.
  - numpad0 2y ago
    DBs can be files on disk though? Besides they're a bit like easy hand rolling powder mix for filesystems. Filesystem entries has properties like filenames and inode numbers and file contents. Databases has columns like emails and membership IDs and their favorite cookies. I don't think "file layout" is an absurd framing.
  - eru 2y ago
    I'm not sure whether 'file' necessarily has to refer to the 'Unix' view of a 'sequence of bytes'? Or just 'some organisational unit of information'? Ie like the stuff you would put into a filing cabinet? The 'sequence of bytes' view is just one specific level of abstraction. It's not what's actually on disk because of things like compression, encryption and fragmentation. Database schemas are a different level of abstraction.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
dataflow 2y ago
Let me put this differently. If you tell me that you have a closet for your jackets and another closet for your shirts, you're telling me how clothes are laid out in your wardrobe. Specifically, you're telling me that you're laying those out separately, and able to deal with them independently, with little interference between the two. It's not the entirety of the layout information, but it sure is some of it. If you tell me that you have a column for your first names and another column for your last names, you're telling me how names are laid out in your database('s files). Specifically, you're telling me that you're laying those out separately, and able to deal with them independently, with little interference between the two. It's not the entirety of the layout information, but it sure is some of it. Sure -- in theory, you could be actually throwing everything together into a dumpster, then paying enough people to search it all in parallel when you want to retrieve that red jacket. If you're actually doing that, maybe you could legitimately claim that you haven't divulged anything about your closet's layout by telling me that shirts and jackets are separate. But chances are pretty darn good you're not actually doing that (and I would know this for a fact if I already somehow knew you were actually using closets built by Joe down the street), and thus actually are exposing layout information by telling me that you're storing them separately. One security implication of which is that, the moment that I get a glimpse of your closet and notice that it contains a shirt, I know it's not the one with the jackets, and I can skip it when trying to steal that expensive red jacket.
- tptacek 2y ago
  It's either a file layout or it is not a file layout. If you write an affidavit saying it's "sort of like a file layout", the conclusion will be that it is not one. Now, the Illinois Supreme Court found that it was a file layout (wrongly). But they didn't use any of this kind of message board logic to do it; they pulled up a definition for "file layout" from a technical dictionary (which, ironically, pretty clearly established, even more than this thread does, that schemas aren't file layouts), and then they pulled up a definition of "schema" from Mirriam-Webster, and the definition of "schema" was so abstract it could have matched anything. If anybody on the Illinois Supreme Court had known what a schema actually was, we'd have won the case. Further, if the definition of "file layout" had been more material to the Chancery case, it would have been in the trial record that it wasn't one.
eru 2y ago
> A SQL schema literally does not indicate the locations of data inside of a file. That's only true if you apply eg the Unix definition of what a file on a file system is (like a sequence of bytes or whatever). For all we know, the law might take a broader view. Something like: a 'file' is anything that in the olden days you would have stuck into a filing cabinet. The 'Unix' definition isn't even particularly natural: it's one specific level of abstraction. On disk, the bytes aren't necessarily laid out one after another. Especially with fragmentation, compression and encryption going on. An SQL schema tells you how data is laid out in a different layer of abstraction than the Unix view of bytes. But that view isn't the only one that the law can mean by 'file'.

WatchDog 2y ago

It seems like an unnecessarily ambiguous term. Without additional context, I would interpret the term “file layout” to mean the file and directory structure of an application. Such an application could potentially store data as plain files, the names of those files may contain personal or sensitive information.

thaumasiotes 2y ago
> Without additional context, I would interpret the term “file layout” to mean the file and directory structure of an application. I would interpret it to mean a description of what the file contains and where. This is information you need if you have a mysterious file and you want to parse it. It's also information you need if you have some data and you want to create a readable file that expresses it. But for the concept to apply to a database schema, (a) the database would have to be a file, and (b) the schema would have to specify where the information in the database is stored. That's difficult to do, since the schema has no knowledge of how much information there is in the database or how it might be written down.
AdamJacobMuller 2y ago
> It seems like an unnecessarily ambiguous term. Agree, and, I don't even understand why it's in there in the first place (it should just not be) but that's a job for the legislature to resolve, not the courts.

dataflow 2y ago

>> And I don't think I disagree with the court on schema vs. file layouts either. > I disagree that the law should prohibit disclosing "file layouts" Note, the court wasn't ruling what the law should say, only what the law says. At least that's my understanding of it. I certainly wasn't opining on what the law should say.

AdamJacobMuller 2y ago
Understood. I mention that distinction only because I find many people (not you) who say that "X law doesn't apply because if it did, it would be bad" vs directing your ire at the actual laws, which are poorly written and the legislators who are negligent in fixing those laws. Courts should decide based on the law, not based on what is "good".