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Was the rebrand really just for simplicity and clarity? It seems like a lot of work to change the name when it was already a pretty established toolchain, not j

by keruli 2y ago

Was the rebrand really just for simplicity and clarity? It seems like a lot of work to change the name when it was already a pretty established toolchain, not just for your team, but, and this is more important, for your community. I actually think EdgeDB was a far better name. It actually meant something; yes, it wasn't a pure graph database, but it did work with the general concept of graphs and edges. Gel means nothing. Even the domain name: geldata.com makes no sense. You're not selling or creating data, it's a database system/layer. I've been a true evangelist for EdgeDB over the last two years, but this has really irked me - irrationally so, I'm aware(!), but I just can't see the benefits outweighing the drawbacks here. It feels like it has to have been a result of some legal action or something. And just as LLMs were starting to catch up with their knowledge cutoff to include EdgeDB too! Now it'll be another two years until they know what you're talking about again. I know, first world problems. Is the query language name changing, by the way? Or is that still EdgeQL? Please let sanity prevail over at least one thing and don't call it "jel-q-ell"!

1st1 2y ago
EdgeQL stays EdgeQL :) I like that name. I also liked EdgeDB (I'm biased, I coined that name myself). But at every conference we had the same conversation with developers: "EdgeDB? Huh, must be an edge-computing database. Are you running SQLite?" There are other minor reasons for the rename, but this annoyance persisted for a number of years and we decided to pull the plug on it. > I've been a true evangelist for EdgeDB over the last two years Thank you. This means a lot.
- re-thc 2y ago
  > But at every conference we had the same conversation with developers I wonder if this will really go away or just be replaced with something else. Is it really the name "specifically" or how a lot of people work? (i.e. going by first impressions, connotations, memes, etc) > "EdgeDB? Huh, must be an edge-computing database. Are you running SQLite?" "Gel? Huh, must be for cosmetics. Is this for retail?" p.s. had no issues with EdgeDB.
  - scotttrinh 2y ago
    Scott from Gel here. I suspect for everyone we talked to in the "So, this is a database for Edge computing?" camp there were a dozen people who thought that and just kept moving even if they were our target audience. It's hard to quantify just what the cost have having a name with such a strong connotation (which has arguably gone up and down in the hype cycle over the lifetime of EdgeDB) has been. Gel doesn't have any really strong existing computing connotations, so maybe people might make a stretch that it's about some non-computing-related domain and maybe we miss reaching them. But that just seems far less likely than trying to continue to push against the overwhelming feeling that "Edge" just has too much baggage and was working against us. Personally, I think it's fine if people find the name confounding or just personally dislike it. I think products like Supabase, Neon, Drizzle, CockroachDB, Django, Flask, Express, etc etc kind of prove that if your name is general enough, you'll overcome that reaction eventually via recognition for the value of the product itself.
    - halfmatthalfcat 2y ago
      I don't want to pile on but it seems like a lot of "going on feels" versus any quantifiable justification.
      - scotttrinh 2y ago
        That's fair, but I think going on _just_ the quantifiable stuff was still enough of a justification for us. My feels are that the cost of our confusing former name is higher than we know, but the known cost was still great enough.
    - pcthrowaway 2y ago
      For every person who passed on EdgeDB on the suspicion it was related to edge computing, someone may have clicked it for the same reason entirely and found something else compelling. Personally I think EdgeDB was a much better and descriptive name than Gel. I haven't used EdgeDB/Gel yet, but have been looking at it with excitement for years now waiting for the opportunity to use it. I am worried that the rename will work against you since you've built such an excellent brand around EdgeDB with so many glowing testimonials.
- divan 2y ago
  As someone who has used EdgeDB religiously for years now and still has projects with EdgeQL code generators (that use old syntax), one of my earlier requests was, "Please don't break things". Don't change the syntax of EdgeQL in a backward incompatible way, don't rename commands in the command line, etc. It's really not a big issue to remember some not-so-perfect term. Requiring thousands of people to unlearn/relearn new terms, commands, and names, and rewrite scripts and documents - is an issue. Didn't expect to see the whole name EdgeDB being replaced with another, ungoogleable name. The argument of "some developers don't look past name and think that it's an edge-computing database" is superficial at best. I can get how it can be annoying, personally, but unless it was backed up with data showing that it hurts adoption, I wouldn't take it as a serious problem worth forcing thousands of users to switch to a new name/commands. Following this logic, these developers could also ask "MySQL? Huh, you must be running it only on your own servers" or "Gel? Huh, is it some toy database for kids?". I wish more people realized the enormous cognitive costs and debt created by such renamings. :/
  - 1st1 2y ago
    Sorry, divan, for causing pain. This wasn't an easy decision. FWIW we're still strict about backwards compat and all you stuff should continue working.

by keruli 2y ago

1st1 2y ago

EdgeQL stays EdgeQL :) I like that name. I also liked EdgeDB (I'm biased, I coined that name myself). But at every conference we had the same conversation with developers: "EdgeDB? Huh, must be an edge-computing database. Are you running SQLite?" There are other minor reasons for the rename, but this annoyance persisted for a number of years and we decided to pull the plug on it. > I've been a true evangelist for EdgeDB over the last two years Thank you. This means a lot.

re-thc 2y ago
> But at every conference we had the same conversation with developers I wonder if this will really go away or just be replaced with something else. Is it really the name "specifically" or how a lot of people work? (i.e. going by first impressions, connotations, memes, etc) > "EdgeDB? Huh, must be an edge-computing database. Are you running SQLite?" "Gel? Huh, must be for cosmetics. Is this for retail?" p.s. had no issues with EdgeDB.
- scotttrinh 2y ago
  Scott from Gel here. I suspect for everyone we talked to in the "So, this is a database for Edge computing?" camp there were a dozen people who thought that and just kept moving even if they were our target audience. It's hard to quantify just what the cost have having a name with such a strong connotation (which has arguably gone up and down in the hype cycle over the lifetime of EdgeDB) has been. Gel doesn't have any really strong existing computing connotations, so maybe people might make a stretch that it's about some non-computing-related domain and maybe we miss reaching them. But that just seems far less likely than trying to continue to push against the overwhelming feeling that "Edge" just has too much baggage and was working against us. Personally, I think it's fine if people find the name confounding or just personally dislike it. I think products like Supabase, Neon, Drizzle, CockroachDB, Django, Flask, Express, etc etc kind of prove that if your name is general enough, you'll overcome that reaction eventually via recognition for the value of the product itself.
  - halfmatthalfcat 2y ago
    I don't want to pile on but it seems like a lot of "going on feels" versus any quantifiable justification.
    - scotttrinh 2y ago
      That's fair, but I think going on _just_ the quantifiable stuff was still enough of a justification for us. My feels are that the cost of our confusing former name is higher than we know, but the known cost was still great enough.
  - pcthrowaway 2y ago
    For every person who passed on EdgeDB on the suspicion it was related to edge computing, someone may have clicked it for the same reason entirely and found something else compelling. Personally I think EdgeDB was a much better and descriptive name than Gel. I haven't used EdgeDB/Gel yet, but have been looking at it with excitement for years now waiting for the opportunity to use it. I am worried that the rename will work against you since you've built such an excellent brand around EdgeDB with so many glowing testimonials.
divan 2y ago
As someone who has used EdgeDB religiously for years now and still has projects with EdgeQL code generators (that use old syntax), one of my earlier requests was, "Please don't break things". Don't change the syntax of EdgeQL in a backward incompatible way, don't rename commands in the command line, etc. It's really not a big issue to remember some not-so-perfect term. Requiring thousands of people to unlearn/relearn new terms, commands, and names, and rewrite scripts and documents - is an issue. Didn't expect to see the whole name EdgeDB being replaced with another, ungoogleable name. The argument of "some developers don't look past name and think that it's an edge-computing database" is superficial at best. I can get how it can be annoying, personally, but unless it was backed up with data showing that it hurts adoption, I wouldn't take it as a serious problem worth forcing thousands of users to switch to a new name/commands. Following this logic, these developers could also ask "MySQL? Huh, you must be running it only on your own servers" or "Gel? Huh, is it some toy database for kids?". I wish more people realized the enormous cognitive costs and debt created by such renamings. :/
- 1st1 2y ago
  Sorry, divan, for causing pain. This wasn't an easy decision. FWIW we're still strict about backwards compat and all you stuff should continue working.