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Interesting takeaways from me: All that pompous sounding legalese can still be ambiguous! I feel less bad for not understanding contracts that have 100 word co

Interesting takeaways from me: All that pompous sounding legalese can still be ambiguous! I feel less bad for not understanding contracts that have 100 word compound sentences. Legal people can't keep up with our tech jargon but they have their own jargon including "predicate" lol. So same logical thinking, different jargon framework. Question: why do they want the schema not the data?

tptacek 2y ago
Because once you have the schema you can issue FOIA requests that include queries for them to run.
- hot_gril 2y ago
  What if you guess common table names? Wonder if they send back the error message.
- aqueueaqueue 2y ago
  Oh wow! If that is necessary, that is so kafkaesque! "I want your data" "What data?" "What do you have?" "Ha ha. No. Tell me what you want" "Your data that is the metadata of your data" "Well actually..." ...
  - tptacek 2y ago
    You can't ask public bodies to do research for you. That's the public policy balance in our FOIA laws: you can get almost anything (and: talk to Matt, you really can get a lot of stuff), but you have to be specific about what you're asking for, and it has to be "at hand" for the staff responding to the request.
    - hunter2_ 2y ago
      Clerks fielding FOIA requests have SQL consoles "at hand"?
      - tptacek 2y ago
        They send emails to IT. The classic example of a thing you can get through FOIA is large-scale dumps of emails from Exchange Servers, which is also not something a Clerk can do themselves, but which IT staff can immediately retrieve. Leave the "Clerk" bit of this out and just imagine you're requesting straight from the IT department. What you can do: get anything not otherwise exempt that they know how to retrieve (it usually helps to provide example commands in the requests). What you cannot do: ask them to go look around and see what they have. That's research. Research is your job, not theirs, under Illinois FOIA.
        hunter2_ 2y ago
        If research is my job, and looking around is research, then couldn't I look around and see what they have instead of asking them to do so?
        tptacek 2y ago
        Maybe? If you work there, I guess? Or if you're really nice to them? But they're under no obligation to help you. The tradeoff in Illinois (and most other good FOIA law): you can get almost anything you want --- way more than most people think --- but you can't get public staff to go do research work for you. Again: this is why pulling schemas is so valuable.
- aerzen 2y ago
  Could you ask them to run an introspection query? Something like SELECT * FROM information_schema.tables?
- darkarmani 2y ago
  Is the schema considered private information or just information not required to be released via FOIA? ie: Can't some nice employee leak this information or is it legally protected? Once the information is released, can anyone can make FOIA requests using the schema?
  - tptacek 2y ago
    Under Illinois law there are just two kinds of data: normal data and data exempt from FOIA. Up to and including the appellate review of Matt's case, schemas were in the formal, normal category. After the State Supreme Court review, they are now per se exempt from FOIA. It's not legally protected. An employee could leak it. A public body can voluntarily reveal documents that are exempt from FOIA (absent some other Illinois law prohibiting disclosure). A public body can disclose source code, for instance, despite it being explicitly exempt in the statute. "This data is exempt" is an affirmative defense that the public body has to raise.

tptacek 2y ago

Because once you have the schema you can issue FOIA requests that include queries for them to run.

hot_gril 2y ago
What if you guess common table names? Wonder if they send back the error message.
aqueueaqueue 2y ago
Oh wow! If that is necessary, that is so kafkaesque! "I want your data" "What data?" "What do you have?" "Ha ha. No. Tell me what you want" "Your data that is the metadata of your data" "Well actually..." ...
- tptacek 2y ago
  You can't ask public bodies to do research for you. That's the public policy balance in our FOIA laws: you can get almost anything (and: talk to Matt, you really can get a lot of stuff), but you have to be specific about what you're asking for, and it has to be "at hand" for the staff responding to the request.
  - hunter2_ 2y ago
    Clerks fielding FOIA requests have SQL consoles "at hand"?
    - tptacek 2y ago
      They send emails to IT. The classic example of a thing you can get through FOIA is large-scale dumps of emails from Exchange Servers, which is also not something a Clerk can do themselves, but which IT staff can immediately retrieve. Leave the "Clerk" bit of this out and just imagine you're requesting straight from the IT department. What you can do: get anything not otherwise exempt that they know how to retrieve (it usually helps to provide example commands in the requests). What you cannot do: ask them to go look around and see what they have. That's research. Research is your job, not theirs, under Illinois FOIA.
      - hunter2_ 2y ago
        If research is my job, and looking around is research, then couldn't I look around and see what they have instead of asking them to do so?
        tptacek 2y ago
        Maybe? If you work there, I guess? Or if you're really nice to them? But they're under no obligation to help you. The tradeoff in Illinois (and most other good FOIA law): you can get almost anything you want --- way more than most people think --- but you can't get public staff to go do research work for you. Again: this is why pulling schemas is so valuable.
aerzen 2y ago
Could you ask them to run an introspection query? Something like SELECT * FROM information_schema.tables?
darkarmani 2y ago
Is the schema considered private information or just information not required to be released via FOIA? ie: Can't some nice employee leak this information or is it legally protected? Once the information is released, can anyone can make FOIA requests using the schema?
- tptacek 2y ago
  Under Illinois law there are just two kinds of data: normal data and data exempt from FOIA. Up to and including the appellate review of Matt's case, schemas were in the formal, normal category. After the State Supreme Court review, they are now per se exempt from FOIA. It's not legally protected. An employee could leak it. A public body can voluntarily reveal documents that are exempt from FOIA (absent some other Illinois law prohibiting disclosure). A public body can disclose source code, for instance, despite it being explicitly exempt in the statute. "This data is exempt" is an affirmative defense that the public body has to raise.