3 ms·

Schema is definitely software, a operating protocol, source code, and file layout. Maybe also documentation.

tptacek 2y ago
A schema isn't software in the sense imagined by the ILGA. If it was, every Excel spreadsheet would be too, and Excel spreadsheets are the basic currency of FOIA. An "operating protocol" is a step-by-step list of things to accomplish some action. It's a finite state machine for humans. Obviously, a schema isn't that; a schema is declarative, and an operating protocol is imperative. The court definitively established that SQL schemas aren't source code in the sense imagined by the ILGA. SQL queries can be. Schemas are not. See downthread for why a schema isn't a file format. In fact, a schema is almost the opposite of a file format. A court will look at the term "documentation" in the ordinary sense of the word; as in, "a prose description and set of instructions". "Associated with automated data processing operations" isn't an element in the statute; it's a description of all of the elements.
- hot_gril 2y ago
  If the Excel spreadsheet has formulas in it, it's software. If you're just talking about the data in the sheet, i.e. what you'd get exporting it as a CSV, then it's not. Col types, unique/FK/PK constraints, default values, and computed cols define the steps for handling row inserts/updates/deletes. Even adding a uniqueness constraint to an already-unique col will change how the code interacts with it, specifically how it deals with concurrency/locking. If they said it has to be an imperative programming language, then it's not that. If they said the schema isn't source code then ok, but I still think it is.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    I assure you that Excel spreadsheets with formulas in them are FOIA-able in Illinois. Since we can take that as axiomatic, I think we can put "schemas are software" to bed.
    - hot_gril 2y ago
      SQL schemas aren't Excel spreadsheets.
      - tptacek 2y ago
        That's fascinating, but you just claimed Excel spreadsheets were "software" in the sense of the Illinois FOIA statute definition, and they are not. QED.
        hot_gril 2y ago
        You said that SQL schemas aren't software, and that's what this lawsuit was about. If they explicitly say that Excel docs (even w/ formulas) aren't software, I think they're wrong, but that doesn't matter because Excel docs aren't SQL schema. Now if you want to go by Illinois definitions, SQL schemas are file layouts, that's why the plaintiff lost.
        tptacek 2y ago
        Again: the post explains why the court determined schemas to be file layouts, and none of it involves any of the logic you've supplied here. Even Chicago didn't try to claim that a schema was a "software".
        hot_gril 2y ago
        They didn't need to. In the first appeal, it didn't matter because it didn't jeopardize security. In the second appeal, they said it's a file layout. You also said SQL schemas are declarative, not imperative. Those are types of programming languages, so software.
- n_plus_1_acc 2y ago
  An Excel formula should be considerd a kind of software, because you cab do code golf in it.
pavon 2y ago
I think a schema will definitely be part of the source listing, either in the main programming language source code or in a some other file used to define or initialize the database. But I don't think it is software, any more than a protocol is software. Software does something. One tricky aspect of this is that even if the schema itself as a higher level concept doesn't fit into any of those definitions, all existing instances of the schema are likely considered either source listings or documentation. So the instances are barred from release per se, and you can't ask the government to create new documents.
- hot_gril 2y ago
  The schema defines how the DBMS sets up its tables and such, so it does quite a bit imo. And if the schema isn't stored in any doc cause just manually punched in CREATE TABLE once, yeah what you said about creating new docs.

A schema isn't software in the sense imagined by the ILGA. If it was, every Excel spreadsheet would be too, and Excel spreadsheets are the basic currency of FOIA. An "operating protocol" is a step-by-step list of things to accomplish some action. It's a finite state machine for humans. Obviously, a schema isn't that; a schema is declarative, and an operating protocol is imperative. The court definitively established that SQL schemas aren't source code in the sense imagined by the ILGA. SQL queries can be. Schemas are not. See downthread for why a schema isn't a file format. In fact, a schema is almost the opposite of a file format. A court will look at the term "documentation" in the ordinary sense of the word; as in, "a prose description and set of instructions". "Associated with automated data processing operations" isn't an element in the statute; it's a description of all of the elements.

hot_gril 2y ago
If the Excel spreadsheet has formulas in it, it's software. If you're just talking about the data in the sheet, i.e. what you'd get exporting it as a CSV, then it's not. Col types, unique/FK/PK constraints, default values, and computed cols define the steps for handling row inserts/updates/deletes. Even adding a uniqueness constraint to an already-unique col will change how the code interacts with it, specifically how it deals with concurrency/locking. If they said it has to be an imperative programming language, then it's not that. If they said the schema isn't source code then ok, but I still think it is.
- tptacek 2y ago
  I assure you that Excel spreadsheets with formulas in them are FOIA-able in Illinois. Since we can take that as axiomatic, I think we can put "schemas are software" to bed.
  - hot_gril 2y ago
    SQL schemas aren't Excel spreadsheets.
    - tptacek 2y ago
      That's fascinating, but you just claimed Excel spreadsheets were "software" in the sense of the Illinois FOIA statute definition, and they are not. QED.
      - hot_gril 2y ago
        You said that SQL schemas aren't software, and that's what this lawsuit was about. If they explicitly say that Excel docs (even w/ formulas) aren't software, I think they're wrong, but that doesn't matter because Excel docs aren't SQL schema. Now if you want to go by Illinois definitions, SQL schemas are file layouts, that's why the plaintiff lost.
        tptacek 2y ago
        Again: the post explains why the court determined schemas to be file layouts, and none of it involves any of the logic you've supplied here. Even Chicago didn't try to claim that a schema was a "software".
        hot_gril 2y ago
        They didn't need to. In the first appeal, it didn't matter because it didn't jeopardize security. In the second appeal, they said it's a file layout. You also said SQL schemas are declarative, not imperative. Those are types of programming languages, so software.
n_plus_1_acc 2y ago
An Excel formula should be considerd a kind of software, because you cab do code golf in it.

pavon 2y ago

I think a schema will definitely be part of the source listing, either in the main programming language source code or in a some other file used to define or initialize the database. But I don't think it is software, any more than a protocol is software. Software does something. One tricky aspect of this is that even if the schema itself as a higher level concept doesn't fit into any of those definitions, all existing instances of the schema are likely considered either source listings or documentation. So the instances are barred from release per se, and you can't ask the government to create new documents.

hot_gril 2y ago
The schema defines how the DBMS sets up its tables and such, so it does quite a bit imo. And if the schema isn't stored in any doc cause just manually punched in CREATE TABLE once, yeah what you said about creating new docs.