4 ms·

On this point I’m convinced that bears are well on the way to domestication. National parks have a name for the ones starting to show domesticated behaviours -

On this point I’m convinced that bears are well on the way to domestication. National parks have a name for the ones starting to show domesticated behaviours - ‘problem bears’. Bears that go out of their way to interact with humans. I feel that’s a case study for domestication right there.

ravetcofx 2y ago
Raccoons too. There's some in our neighborhood who hold out their hands to beg
rich_sasha 2y ago
IME bears are sadly quite thick. They will get used to humans but also easily feel threatened by them. So first they won't keep their distance, but then may well act aggressive / threatened. They'd need to somehow lose the aggression to continue on the road to pethood. Based on many reports of brown bear behaviour in the Carpathian mountains and an N=1 natural experiment.
- nyrikki 2y ago
  Black Bears 'aggression' is almost exclusively what is called bluster. It is a stress/fear response. But they aren't social hunters so the ability to lose that fear response isn't something that was selected for. Similar to racoons and even bald eagles, which are like pistons in Alaskan fishing towns, with a wider fear boundary radius. Urban coyotes, which are typically solitary, mating pair or sibling group limited are similar, being there but hiding in the shadows in fear typically. If you have ever had the misfortune of knowing someone with a wolf hybrid, that fear resulting in unpredictable behavior is fairly obvious. Brown bears have more subtle stress indicators, if you watch the tragic videos recorded by Timothy Treadwell, and have experience with brown bear stress indicators it is quite obvious. Obviously most animals are opportunistic, with even animals like horses being willing to eat voles or chicks that enter the pasture, and Treadwell stayed past the bountiful times when brown bears suppress their fear to co-feed with other bears which changed the calculus and ended poorly for him and his girlfriend. The species that have been domesticated almost universally are cooperative either for protection or for finding food. IMHO, the development of the ability to read human emotions is what allowed for the domestic dog. My first job in highschool was as the kennel boy at a rural veterinary clinic. Dealing with injured animals safety was almost always about controlling my own lack of stress indicators and trying to communicate intent while observing for stress indicators in the animal. No matter if it was an injured dog or horse etc... But you often had to remove them from their owners because dogs, being social are great at picking up clues from their owners. If an owner was concerned their dog would bite, it would almost always do so. Yet if you removed that cue, it is amazing how much less likely it was . If you observe bears interaction with other bears it is typically filled with stress indicators like jaw clacking etc... They never comfortable with any bear that isn't a mother or sibling. So I doubt that there is a real reliable path to pet hood for them, just as there isn't, unfortunately, for most wolf hybrids. The aggression (really almost always harmless bluster) is simply a secondary emotional response to the primary fear and anxiety. They aren't 'thick' they just aren't built the same way.
SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
I've seen "problem baboons". The issue with baboons is that they are clever and dexterous enough to do things that other wildlife does not. They know to pull on door handles. So they can get into a kitchen via an open window, open cupboard doors until they find the one with the cold food inside, leave the door open, haul the food out, eat some, shit on the floor, climb up the drainpipe onto the roof with some of their haul etc. They're clever enough to scatter when someone raises a rifle and points it at them; but they'll do the same if you use a wooden walking stick. And of course they're highly social, seldom encountered alone.
6SixTy 2y ago
Issue is that for domestication to be possible, there has to be a preexisting social structure like herding, colonies, or packs. If it's too weak or non existent, there's no chance that domestication is possible. Having docile examples are always going to be a thing, as snakes aren't exotic pets nor social by any stretch, but that's not what domestication is. There's an additional risk with omnivorous/carnivorous animals could see people as prey, and this risk pretty much goes up with the size of the animal. I have no idea how bears act with one another, but I do know they can eat meat and are basically person sized.
- hollerith 2y ago
  >for domestication to be possible, there has to be a preexisting social structure like herding, colonies, or packs. If it's too weak or non existent, there's no chance that domestication is possible. Is that really true? A cat seems to relate to a person as if the person were the cat's mother. The kneading with its paws that a cat does after it jumps into your lap is what a kitten does in the wild to induce its mother to express milk.
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    Feral domestic cats have colonies. I don't think their nearest wild relatives do, but its at least conceivable that colony structure of cats living around human populations, off of leavings and rats, etc., that were attracted to human populations developed first, then domestication happened later.
    - stonemetal12 2y ago
      Lions have colonies, so certain types of cats are capable of it pre-domestication.
    - scythe 2y ago
      They are not cooperative hunters, unlike wolves, but they do display some social traits. See chapter 4: https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/78460899/Complete-libre.pdf?1641825606=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DBehavioural_ecology_and_population_genet.pdf&Expires=1740523966&Signature=PcidXgZHusy-hZF08aTpisnllL3Yl74ppdOwtdgU4eYoF3dgKhQTvQIEriXxtA1hv9QyOawuqovFhDjbj8Zjj94uc0CQ95ViJJx56uSAyDRQAI60XEVFBk8CCe-ougknrFmOpETsgeTv~T7YMo89SjyVMhTJvd5O~Qzr9yo9CH4sAJiYiFukfJ349zJgHlejWFwtQlWYhjq21k5NEEzYuiwris78m7wAnsEXINH9HdjhpqGKIint3CW13eoLHvvUvMgqfB1ImVPoRUJ2kbIN9DHoNmo9WTBQIGfkSOi~VeRmUkQjyUSnERUq27Z4fs~Wk-yL~k24Z9jC2DLxM7XFqA__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/78460899/Complete-libr...

ravetcofx 2y ago

Raccoons too. There's some in our neighborhood who hold out their hands to beg

rich_sasha 2y ago

IME bears are sadly quite thick. They will get used to humans but also easily feel threatened by them. So first they won't keep their distance, but then may well act aggressive / threatened. They'd need to somehow lose the aggression to continue on the road to pethood. Based on many reports of brown bear behaviour in the Carpathian mountains and an N=1 natural experiment.

nyrikki 2y ago
Black Bears 'aggression' is almost exclusively what is called bluster. It is a stress/fear response. But they aren't social hunters so the ability to lose that fear response isn't something that was selected for. Similar to racoons and even bald eagles, which are like pistons in Alaskan fishing towns, with a wider fear boundary radius. Urban coyotes, which are typically solitary, mating pair or sibling group limited are similar, being there but hiding in the shadows in fear typically. If you have ever had the misfortune of knowing someone with a wolf hybrid, that fear resulting in unpredictable behavior is fairly obvious. Brown bears have more subtle stress indicators, if you watch the tragic videos recorded by Timothy Treadwell, and have experience with brown bear stress indicators it is quite obvious. Obviously most animals are opportunistic, with even animals like horses being willing to eat voles or chicks that enter the pasture, and Treadwell stayed past the bountiful times when brown bears suppress their fear to co-feed with other bears which changed the calculus and ended poorly for him and his girlfriend. The species that have been domesticated almost universally are cooperative either for protection or for finding food. IMHO, the development of the ability to read human emotions is what allowed for the domestic dog. My first job in highschool was as the kennel boy at a rural veterinary clinic. Dealing with injured animals safety was almost always about controlling my own lack of stress indicators and trying to communicate intent while observing for stress indicators in the animal. No matter if it was an injured dog or horse etc... But you often had to remove them from their owners because dogs, being social are great at picking up clues from their owners. If an owner was concerned their dog would bite, it would almost always do so. Yet if you removed that cue, it is amazing how much less likely it was . If you observe bears interaction with other bears it is typically filled with stress indicators like jaw clacking etc... They never comfortable with any bear that isn't a mother or sibling. So I doubt that there is a real reliable path to pet hood for them, just as there isn't, unfortunately, for most wolf hybrids. The aggression (really almost always harmless bluster) is simply a secondary emotional response to the primary fear and anxiety. They aren't 'thick' they just aren't built the same way.

SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago

I've seen "problem baboons". The issue with baboons is that they are clever and dexterous enough to do things that other wildlife does not. They know to pull on door handles. So they can get into a kitchen via an open window, open cupboard doors until they find the one with the cold food inside, leave the door open, haul the food out, eat some, shit on the floor, climb up the drainpipe onto the roof with some of their haul etc. They're clever enough to scatter when someone raises a rifle and points it at them; but they'll do the same if you use a wooden walking stick. And of course they're highly social, seldom encountered alone.

6SixTy 2y ago

Issue is that for domestication to be possible, there has to be a preexisting social structure like herding, colonies, or packs. If it's too weak or non existent, there's no chance that domestication is possible. Having docile examples are always going to be a thing, as snakes aren't exotic pets nor social by any stretch, but that's not what domestication is. There's an additional risk with omnivorous/carnivorous animals could see people as prey, and this risk pretty much goes up with the size of the animal. I have no idea how bears act with one another, but I do know they can eat meat and are basically person sized.

hollerith 2y ago
>for domestication to be possible, there has to be a preexisting social structure like herding, colonies, or packs. If it's too weak or non existent, there's no chance that domestication is possible. Is that really true? A cat seems to relate to a person as if the person were the cat's mother. The kneading with its paws that a cat does after it jumps into your lap is what a kitten does in the wild to induce its mother to express milk.
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  Feral domestic cats have colonies. I don't think their nearest wild relatives do, but its at least conceivable that colony structure of cats living around human populations, off of leavings and rats, etc., that were attracted to human populations developed first, then domestication happened later.
  - stonemetal12 2y ago
    Lions have colonies, so certain types of cats are capable of it pre-domestication.
  - scythe 2y ago
    They are not cooperative hunters, unlike wolves, but they do display some social traits. See chapter 4: https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/78460899/Complete-libre.pdf?1641825606=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DBehavioural_ecology_and_population_genet.pdf&Expires=1740523966&Signature=PcidXgZHusy-hZF08aTpisnllL3Yl74ppdOwtdgU4eYoF3dgKhQTvQIEriXxtA1hv9QyOawuqovFhDjbj8Zjj94uc0CQ95ViJJx56uSAyDRQAI60XEVFBk8CCe-ougknrFmOpETsgeTv~T7YMo89SjyVMhTJvd5O~Qzr9yo9CH4sAJiYiFukfJ349zJgHlejWFwtQlWYhjq21k5NEEzYuiwris78m7wAnsEXINH9HdjhpqGKIint3CW13eoLHvvUvMgqfB1ImVPoRUJ2kbIN9DHoNmo9WTBQIGfkSOi~VeRmUkQjyUSnERUq27Z4fs~Wk-yL~k24Z9jC2DLxM7XFqA__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/78460899/Complete-libr...