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Ah yes, the classic equivalent extremism of the blue hairs on Twitter (who hold approximately zero levers of state power) and the actual elected leader of the o

Ah yes, the classic equivalent extremism of the blue hairs on Twitter (who hold approximately zero levers of state power) and the actual elected leader of the other party. One extremist group says insane shit on TikTok, the other runs the FBI. The latter is totally a sensible response to the former.

MyOutfitIsVague 2y ago
I don't think they are equivalent. Neither is sensible, and the current situation is worse by at least one order of magnitude. I'm just claiming that the popular ideology of only a few years ago was leftist and had a heavily authoritarian slant. Despite the current ridiculous fight against "woke ideology" and "cancel culture", it's not like it didn't actually exist. And it wasn't just extremist groups saying insane shit on TikTok. People were getting harassed through GitHub, issues were being brigaded, tons of big FOSS projects had some big CoC kerfuffle, then there were the master/slave, git master branch, whitelist/blacklist naming things, demanding renaming of projects, demanding people be fired, etc. Some of these things were reasonable, some were unreasonable, but it's incredibly disingenuous to pretend that it was just "One extremist group says insane shit on TikTok". It was a lot of people effecting a lot of real changes. Notably in FOSS, it was a lot of outsiders coming into a space and telling the people in that space how they were supposed to do their jobs, despite the outsiders not contributing anything other than judgement and not having any stake in it. I definitely see some parallels, even if they aren't equivalent.
- pjc50 2y ago
  > And it wasn't just extremist groups saying insane shit on TikTok. People were getting harassed through GitHub, issues were being brigaded, tons of big FOSS projects had some big CoC kerfuffle, then there were the master/slave, git master branch, whitelist/blacklist naming things, demanding renaming of projects, demanding people be fired, etc All of these things you've mentioned were done by private citizens, members of the general public, exercising their free speech, not elected representatives or anyone in the government. You've made an argument against Twitter.
  - MyOutfitIsVague 2y ago
    I know that these were done by private citizens. I think you might believe I'm making a point that I'm not. My point is these things existed and did have actual power. They had sway in private organizations, and even questioning them was enough in some situations to be fired. The current movement is reactionary, and was, like it or not, fueled by distaste for the previous push. A lot of people like to pretend like this came from nowhere, in reaction to nothing, and that's simply not true. People here are claiming that all of the current administration's claims are bald-faced lies, and that's also not true. I'm a liberal. I've been complaining about the leftist authoritarian push for years, primarily because it was going to create fuel for a powerful right-wing reactionary movement. I'm pretty surprised by the force and extremity of the current situation, but I'm not at all surprised that it's happening.
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      > My point is these things existed and did have actual power. They had sway in private organizations This is called the marketplace of ideas Sometimes the marketplace lets stupid things get some sway, and it is up to the marketplace (not the state) to push those aside > A lot of people like to pretend like this came from nowhere, in reaction to nothing, and that's simply not true No, I think people are "pretending" like the use of state power is not an appropriate reaction to "overstepping" within the marketplace of ideas, which of course is true. The vast majority of left-leaning people find the blue hairs goofy at best, which is exactly why they do not hold political power. I don't think anyone on the left is "surprised" by what's going on right now, FWIW.
    - pjc50 2y ago
      But these things aren't connected! How is a government department randomly firing federal employees going to stop people asking for codes of conduct to stop sexual harrasment at conferences? Or is the idea simply that by seizing the national microphone, as it were, they're going to take over the discourse? Government as big reality show?
      - 2y ago

MyOutfitIsVague 2y ago

I don't think they are equivalent. Neither is sensible, and the current situation is worse by at least one order of magnitude. I'm just claiming that the popular ideology of only a few years ago was leftist and had a heavily authoritarian slant. Despite the current ridiculous fight against "woke ideology" and "cancel culture", it's not like it didn't actually exist. And it wasn't just extremist groups saying insane shit on TikTok. People were getting harassed through GitHub, issues were being brigaded, tons of big FOSS projects had some big CoC kerfuffle, then there were the master/slave, git master branch, whitelist/blacklist naming things, demanding renaming of projects, demanding people be fired, etc. Some of these things were reasonable, some were unreasonable, but it's incredibly disingenuous to pretend that it was just "One extremist group says insane shit on TikTok". It was a lot of people effecting a lot of real changes. Notably in FOSS, it was a lot of outsiders coming into a space and telling the people in that space how they were supposed to do their jobs, despite the outsiders not contributing anything other than judgement and not having any stake in it. I definitely see some parallels, even if they aren't equivalent.

pjc50 2y ago
> And it wasn't just extremist groups saying insane shit on TikTok. People were getting harassed through GitHub, issues were being brigaded, tons of big FOSS projects had some big CoC kerfuffle, then there were the master/slave, git master branch, whitelist/blacklist naming things, demanding renaming of projects, demanding people be fired, etc All of these things you've mentioned were done by private citizens, members of the general public, exercising their free speech, not elected representatives or anyone in the government. You've made an argument against Twitter.
- MyOutfitIsVague 2y ago
  I know that these were done by private citizens. I think you might believe I'm making a point that I'm not. My point is these things existed and did have actual power. They had sway in private organizations, and even questioning them was enough in some situations to be fired. The current movement is reactionary, and was, like it or not, fueled by distaste for the previous push. A lot of people like to pretend like this came from nowhere, in reaction to nothing, and that's simply not true. People here are claiming that all of the current administration's claims are bald-faced lies, and that's also not true. I'm a liberal. I've been complaining about the leftist authoritarian push for years, primarily because it was going to create fuel for a powerful right-wing reactionary movement. I'm pretty surprised by the force and extremity of the current situation, but I'm not at all surprised that it's happening.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    > My point is these things existed and did have actual power. They had sway in private organizations This is called the marketplace of ideas Sometimes the marketplace lets stupid things get some sway, and it is up to the marketplace (not the state) to push those aside > A lot of people like to pretend like this came from nowhere, in reaction to nothing, and that's simply not true No, I think people are "pretending" like the use of state power is not an appropriate reaction to "overstepping" within the marketplace of ideas, which of course is true. The vast majority of left-leaning people find the blue hairs goofy at best, which is exactly why they do not hold political power. I don't think anyone on the left is "surprised" by what's going on right now, FWIW.
  - pjc50 2y ago
    But these things aren't connected! How is a government department randomly firing federal employees going to stop people asking for codes of conduct to stop sexual harrasment at conferences? Or is the idea simply that by seizing the national microphone, as it were, they're going to take over the discourse? Government as big reality show?
    - 2y ago