5 ms·

As someone who lived in the sud-ouest during the yellow vests protests, "very very low tolerance for social violence" is...not my general impression of the Fren

by Doches 2y ago

As someone who lived in the sud-ouest during the yellow vests protests, "very very low tolerance for social violence" is...not my general impression of the French people. (Low tolerance for fascism, yes, obviously. But "social violence" is pretty much what passes for entertainment on a Saturday morning)

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
black_puppydog 2y ago
Social violence describes the gutting of social security, healthcare systems etc to the detriment of primarily the most vulnerable. Not the fact that people protest, however violently. It's just not the right vocabulary.
- aaomidi 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - maxehmookau 2y ago
    I don't know if that's entirely fair. France is staunchly secular, more so than most of its European counterparts. I could be wrong, but I don't think you can wear a crucifix or other religious symbol in French schools either.
    - black_puppydog 2y ago
      Yes you can, "because it's not visible". France is about as catholic as it gets when it comes to who actually runs the show.
      - netfortius 2y ago
        Are you kidding me? I moved three years ago, from the US, to France, and I am still to hear one single "god bless you", in a conversation or media, let alone the religious comments of all sorts, at work, in political speeches, among folks at home and in the neighborhood, at the daily rate I used to have to ingurgitate, in the land of the free [evangelists].
        black_puppydog 2y ago
        The US is a really low bar to clear in terms of laicism :)
      - nchagnet 2y ago
        To be fair, whether you disagree with it or not, this is the spirit of the law: ostensible religious symbols are not allowed in public schools (and more generally in republican institutions). So yes, one symbol is more visible than others, and that makes it somewhat unfair, but the "visible" portion is realistic. You can't ask teachers to check under student's clothes for them. I will agree though that France has also been very reactionary towards its Muslim population and laicity has been a convenient tool to bash them. But that doesn't invalidate the purpose of the original principle.
  - inamorty 2y ago
    Religion has no place in school in that context
    - aaomidi 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        Family can be wrong, society exists to protect rights, regardless of parental belief systems.
        aaomidi 2y ago
        [flagged]
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        > Societies always have a taste for fascism/authoritarianism. But so too can religious and parental belief systems, so a balance must be struck. Children belong to neither parents nor society, they are simply different guardians and stakeholders of them at different points in their lives.
        spwa4 2y ago
        I think this attitude is exactly why the birth rates are down so much. Humans are intelligent, and do things for a reason. Including having, or not having, children. There used to be reasons for having children in the west. They were your pension, and they were the financial success of both you personally, your village, even your country. Today such systems survive: certain factions expect to win through children, and see it both as a way to attack and an exploit "against the west" (an exploit against human rights regulations). The most egregious example of that is in Palestine. There, if you have a kid and they attack "the enemy", mostly their mother and father get money for life. The more "enemies" killed, the more money. Paid with UN money. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_... (note that the wikipedia article is not accurate. In the description of the fund on the PA website it does NOT say "violence against Israel". It does not even say "Violence against Israeli", although it does refer to persons. Another inaccuracy is that the fund was ended. It was not. It was renamed and the conditions changed, slightly, as discussed here: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1ix23s1/mahmoud_abbas_lied_about_ending_payments_to/ https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1ix23s1/ma...
  - yubblegum 2y ago
    It's the law of the land. Just like in "Islamic Republic of Iran" where you hail from, "it is the law of the land" of strictly secular France that students must adhere to a very strict dress code. So secularism vs theocracy. Horses for courses. Except of course the French will not shoot buckshot at the school girls violating the "dress code" and blind them.
    - codedokode 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - yubblegum 2y ago
        National culture and character is not a "political" matter. It has nothing to do with "democracy". The national symbol of France is a woman leading a secular-masonic revolution with her tits hanging out, for God's sake. What did they expect, moving to France??? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/La_Libert%C3%A9_guidant_le_peuple_-_Eug%C3%A8ne_Delacroix_-_Mus%C3%A9e_du_Louvre_Peintures_RF_129_-_apr%C3%A8s_restauration_2024.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/La_Liber...
euroderf 2y ago
> "very very low tolerance for social violence" is...not my general impression of the French people. "French people" includes the French police, I presume. For "social violence" it might be informative to substitute "direct action". For example, there is José Bové.
- mytailorisrich 2y ago
  A rose by any other name... By the way, "Action Directe" was a famous French terrorist organisation in the 80s [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_Directe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_Directe
oooyay 2y ago
I don't view political organization as violence, I view it as a healthy democracy - even if the country or people don't agree with the conclusions of that group of people. It is healthy that they feel comfortable expressing their wants and needs to the people with power to change it. What Elon is doing in the US isn't organizing or demanding the system to be better; it's taking control of the system and saying he can do better.
- _bin_ 2y ago
  To be clear, the french regularly engage in violence, of which the yellow vest riots are an excellent example. Damage to property and injury to persons is not “political organization”, it is definitionally violence.

by Doches 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

black_puppydog 2y ago

Social violence describes the gutting of social security, healthcare systems etc to the detriment of primarily the most vulnerable. Not the fact that people protest, however violently. It's just not the right vocabulary.

aaomidi 2y ago
[flagged]
- maxehmookau 2y ago
  I don't know if that's entirely fair. France is staunchly secular, more so than most of its European counterparts. I could be wrong, but I don't think you can wear a crucifix or other religious symbol in French schools either.
  - black_puppydog 2y ago
    Yes you can, "because it's not visible". France is about as catholic as it gets when it comes to who actually runs the show.
    - netfortius 2y ago
      Are you kidding me? I moved three years ago, from the US, to France, and I am still to hear one single "god bless you", in a conversation or media, let alone the religious comments of all sorts, at work, in political speeches, among folks at home and in the neighborhood, at the daily rate I used to have to ingurgitate, in the land of the free [evangelists].
      - black_puppydog 2y ago
        The US is a really low bar to clear in terms of laicism :)
    - nchagnet 2y ago
      To be fair, whether you disagree with it or not, this is the spirit of the law: ostensible religious symbols are not allowed in public schools (and more generally in republican institutions). So yes, one symbol is more visible than others, and that makes it somewhat unfair, but the "visible" portion is realistic. You can't ask teachers to check under student's clothes for them. I will agree though that France has also been very reactionary towards its Muslim population and laicity has been a convenient tool to bash them. But that doesn't invalidate the purpose of the original principle.
- inamorty 2y ago
  Religion has no place in school in that context
  - aaomidi 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      Family can be wrong, society exists to protect rights, regardless of parental belief systems.
      - aaomidi 2y ago
        [flagged]
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        > Societies always have a taste for fascism/authoritarianism. But so too can religious and parental belief systems, so a balance must be struck. Children belong to neither parents nor society, they are simply different guardians and stakeholders of them at different points in their lives.
        spwa4 2y ago
        I think this attitude is exactly why the birth rates are down so much. Humans are intelligent, and do things for a reason. Including having, or not having, children. There used to be reasons for having children in the west. They were your pension, and they were the financial success of both you personally, your village, even your country. Today such systems survive: certain factions expect to win through children, and see it both as a way to attack and an exploit "against the west" (an exploit against human rights regulations). The most egregious example of that is in Palestine. There, if you have a kid and they attack "the enemy", mostly their mother and father get money for life. The more "enemies" killed, the more money. Paid with UN money. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_... (note that the wikipedia article is not accurate. In the description of the fund on the PA website it does NOT say "violence against Israel". It does not even say "Violence against Israeli", although it does refer to persons. Another inaccuracy is that the fund was ended. It was not. It was renamed and the conditions changed, slightly, as discussed here: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1ix23s1/mahmoud_abbas_lied_about_ending_payments_to/ https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1ix23s1/ma...
- yubblegum 2y ago
  It's the law of the land. Just like in "Islamic Republic of Iran" where you hail from, "it is the law of the land" of strictly secular France that students must adhere to a very strict dress code. So secularism vs theocracy. Horses for courses. Except of course the French will not shoot buckshot at the school girls violating the "dress code" and blind them.
  - codedokode 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - yubblegum 2y ago
      National culture and character is not a "political" matter. It has nothing to do with "democracy". The national symbol of France is a woman leading a secular-masonic revolution with her tits hanging out, for God's sake. What did they expect, moving to France??? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/La_Libert%C3%A9_guidant_le_peuple_-_Eug%C3%A8ne_Delacroix_-_Mus%C3%A9e_du_Louvre_Peintures_RF_129_-_apr%C3%A8s_restauration_2024.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/La_Liber...

euroderf 2y ago

> "very very low tolerance for social violence" is...not my general impression of the French people. "French people" includes the French police, I presume. For "social violence" it might be informative to substitute "direct action". For example, there is José Bové.

mytailorisrich 2y ago
A rose by any other name... By the way, "Action Directe" was a famous French terrorist organisation in the 80s [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_Directe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_Directe

oooyay 2y ago

I don't view political organization as violence, I view it as a healthy democracy - even if the country or people don't agree with the conclusions of that group of people. It is healthy that they feel comfortable expressing their wants and needs to the people with power to change it. What Elon is doing in the US isn't organizing or demanding the system to be better; it's taking control of the system and saying he can do better.

_bin_ 2y ago
To be clear, the french regularly engage in violence, of which the yellow vest riots are an excellent example. Damage to property and injury to persons is not “political organization”, it is definitionally violence.