7 ms·

Good, now our (european) politicians should stop forcing companies like Volkswagen, with an incredible history and technological background, giving money to Mus

Good, now our (european) politicians should stop forcing companies like Volkswagen, with an incredible history and technological background, giving money to Musk for carbon credits. Use the same money to improve public transportation and the long term impact on CO2 will be better for sure. Not only civil cars are a trivial part of CO2 emissions, but there are many other effective ways to improve things: avoid trucks to move goods, in favor of trains (we have good trains on average) and boats, like 30/40 years ago. Public transportation, as I said. Warming systems... All changes that could have greater effects without destroying our car industry. For reference: Volkswagen has 650k employees. 300k in Germany, 350k outside.

pjc50 2y ago
> cars are a trivial part of CO2 emissions Sadly this isn't true. Not to mention the particulates which VW defrauded everyone about. VW need to stop their engine division running the company and get with the affordable EV programme.
- menaerus 2y ago
  > Sadly this isn't true. CO2 emissions from fossil fuels is 38 billion tones in 2023 (https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions) Oceania: ~0.5 billion tones Aviation: ~1 billion tones Africa: ~1.5 billion tones Europe: ~5 billion tones America: ~7.2 billion tones Asia: ~22.5 billion tones This includes the fossil fuels from the whole industry and not only the civil transportation. Europe constitutes ~13% of total (world) emissions. How much does the fossile fuel car industry contribute to these numbers? I couldn't find that information.
  - menaerus 2y ago
    > How much does the fossile fuel car industry contribute to these numbers? I couldn't find that information. Let's try to deduce this number. According to https://www.acea.auto/files/ACEA-report-vehicles-in-use-europe-2023.pdf https://www.acea.auto/files/ACEA-report-vehicles-in-use-euro... in 2023 there had been ~294M passenger cars registered (on the road) in EU+EFTA+UK (page nr 4). Roughly around 93% of those ~294M passenger cars are either petrol or diesel, so ~274M (page nr 14). According to https://www.acea.auto/figure/average-co2-emissions-from-new-passenger-cars-by-eu-country https://www.acea.auto/figure/average-co2-emissions-from-new-... the average CO2/km consumption for new cars is 110g. Let's correct this figure so that it also includes the older cars so let's assume that the CO2/km consumption is 130g. Let the average passenger car distance travel be 15k km a year. 274M cars * 15k km * 130g = 5.343×10¹⁴g = 0.5343 billion tonnes. So, only 10% of total CO2 emissions from Europe and 0.01% of total CO2 emissions in the world?
    - antirez 2y ago
      Shouldn't that be 1% of emissions in the world? Btw, still more practical to address other stuff. Not that EV are a bad idea, but you can't force such change: the EU plans failed, because people don't have often a viable setup to switch to EV, so it should be made more incremental and together with other infrastructural changes.
      - menaerus 2y ago
        Yeah, c/p mistake, thanks for noticing. ~1% it is. > Not that EV are a bad idea From an engineering point of view, if we were to solve the pollution problem, and if the numbers above are not terribly wrong, then the EVs are not an answer. There is a huge (operating) cost attached to rebuilding the whole industry with apparently a very small impact. And I'd say with a reasonably large negative impact since we see many automotive manufacturers folding under the EV pressure. > because people don't have often a viable setup to switch to EV I agree and I would also add that not that many people can afford buying a new car for ~40k EUR. For many people this is inaccessible.
    - pjc50 2y ago
      This seems completely out of line vs https://www.europarl.europa.eu/topics/en/article/20190313STO31218/co2-emissions-from-cars-facts-and-figures-infographics https://www.europarl.europa.eu/topics/en/article/20190313STO... of which 60% is cars?
      - menaerus 2y ago
        The source you mention is > according to a report from the European Environment Agency and I don't know how they got to their numbers. Don't have time to read it right now but do you see a mistake in my calculations? I think I used valid sources?
  - fulafel 2y ago
    Tracking just the car fuel is significantly undercounting, keyword: lifecycle CO2 footprint. Esp for EVs.
    - menaerus 2y ago
      Can you please elaborate what do you mean more precisely? I am not sure I understand. If 5 bln tonnes is total CO2 emissions, how else would you calculate the contribution of petrol/diesel car industry?
      - fulafel 2y ago
        In addition to the fossil fuels, car you have emissions from the manufacturing and ingredients (steel, lithium, etc), the recycling, etc. See eg https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/623b0fb28fa8f540f3202c12/lifecycle-analysis-of-UK-road-vehicles.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/623b0fb28fa8f... p.5 for a graph. (Depending on context we might include the car roads construction and maintenance as well, for example when considering the merits of different transportation modes)
        menaerus 2y ago
        Sure but that's the total manufacturing CO2 footprint and that's not what I was trying to deduce here. I was trying to understand how much of the problem are we trying to solve with the transition to the EVs. Manufacturing CO2 emissions of the EVs ≈ manufacturing emissions of ICEs.
simgt 2y ago
What shocks me with European automakers is that all small EVs have disappeared from their offerings. Renault Zoe, Twingo, VW Up, etc. SUVs on the other hand are absolutely everywhere. Public transports are the ultimate solution of course, but we can't do without cars after decades of car-centric urban development.
- jansan 2y ago
  My wife spends more than two hours in public transport every day and believe me, it is the ultimate nightmare, not the ultimate solution.
  - eigart 2y ago
    I grew up in a city with well-functioning public transportation. Biggest luxury I ever had. I miss it.
    - Toutouxc 2y ago
      I live in a city with one of the best public transport systems in the world. Anywhere I want to go, there's a bus/tram/trolleybus/subway that goes there and leaves in less than 15 minutes. It costs $150 a year. If that isn't luxury then I don't know what is.
  - Toutouxc 2y ago
    Maybe something could be done to make public transport better in your city/region?
- rsynnott 2y ago
  The eUp at least is getting a replacement (i2) though I think it's delayed til next year.

pjc50 2y ago

> cars are a trivial part of CO2 emissions Sadly this isn't true. Not to mention the particulates which VW defrauded everyone about. VW need to stop their engine division running the company and get with the affordable EV programme.

menaerus 2y ago
> Sadly this isn't true. CO2 emissions from fossil fuels is 38 billion tones in 2023 (https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions) Oceania: ~0.5 billion tones Aviation: ~1 billion tones Africa: ~1.5 billion tones Europe: ~5 billion tones America: ~7.2 billion tones Asia: ~22.5 billion tones This includes the fossil fuels from the whole industry and not only the civil transportation. Europe constitutes ~13% of total (world) emissions. How much does the fossile fuel car industry contribute to these numbers? I couldn't find that information.
- menaerus 2y ago
  > How much does the fossile fuel car industry contribute to these numbers? I couldn't find that information. Let's try to deduce this number. According to https://www.acea.auto/files/ACEA-report-vehicles-in-use-europe-2023.pdf https://www.acea.auto/files/ACEA-report-vehicles-in-use-euro... in 2023 there had been ~294M passenger cars registered (on the road) in EU+EFTA+UK (page nr 4). Roughly around 93% of those ~294M passenger cars are either petrol or diesel, so ~274M (page nr 14). According to https://www.acea.auto/figure/average-co2-emissions-from-new-passenger-cars-by-eu-country https://www.acea.auto/figure/average-co2-emissions-from-new-... the average CO2/km consumption for new cars is 110g. Let's correct this figure so that it also includes the older cars so let's assume that the CO2/km consumption is 130g. Let the average passenger car distance travel be 15k km a year. 274M cars * 15k km * 130g = 5.343×10¹⁴g = 0.5343 billion tonnes. So, only 10% of total CO2 emissions from Europe and 0.01% of total CO2 emissions in the world?
  - antirez 2y ago
    Shouldn't that be 1% of emissions in the world? Btw, still more practical to address other stuff. Not that EV are a bad idea, but you can't force such change: the EU plans failed, because people don't have often a viable setup to switch to EV, so it should be made more incremental and together with other infrastructural changes.
    - menaerus 2y ago
      Yeah, c/p mistake, thanks for noticing. ~1% it is. > Not that EV are a bad idea From an engineering point of view, if we were to solve the pollution problem, and if the numbers above are not terribly wrong, then the EVs are not an answer. There is a huge (operating) cost attached to rebuilding the whole industry with apparently a very small impact. And I'd say with a reasonably large negative impact since we see many automotive manufacturers folding under the EV pressure. > because people don't have often a viable setup to switch to EV I agree and I would also add that not that many people can afford buying a new car for ~40k EUR. For many people this is inaccessible.
  - pjc50 2y ago
    This seems completely out of line vs https://www.europarl.europa.eu/topics/en/article/20190313STO31218/co2-emissions-from-cars-facts-and-figures-infographics https://www.europarl.europa.eu/topics/en/article/20190313STO... of which 60% is cars?
    - menaerus 2y ago
      The source you mention is > according to a report from the European Environment Agency and I don't know how they got to their numbers. Don't have time to read it right now but do you see a mistake in my calculations? I think I used valid sources?
- fulafel 2y ago
  Tracking just the car fuel is significantly undercounting, keyword: lifecycle CO2 footprint. Esp for EVs.
  - menaerus 2y ago
    Can you please elaborate what do you mean more precisely? I am not sure I understand. If 5 bln tonnes is total CO2 emissions, how else would you calculate the contribution of petrol/diesel car industry?
    - fulafel 2y ago
      In addition to the fossil fuels, car you have emissions from the manufacturing and ingredients (steel, lithium, etc), the recycling, etc. See eg https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/623b0fb28fa8f540f3202c12/lifecycle-analysis-of-UK-road-vehicles.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/623b0fb28fa8f... p.5 for a graph. (Depending on context we might include the car roads construction and maintenance as well, for example when considering the merits of different transportation modes)
      - menaerus 2y ago
        Sure but that's the total manufacturing CO2 footprint and that's not what I was trying to deduce here. I was trying to understand how much of the problem are we trying to solve with the transition to the EVs. Manufacturing CO2 emissions of the EVs ≈ manufacturing emissions of ICEs.

simgt 2y ago

What shocks me with European automakers is that all small EVs have disappeared from their offerings. Renault Zoe, Twingo, VW Up, etc. SUVs on the other hand are absolutely everywhere. Public transports are the ultimate solution of course, but we can't do without cars after decades of car-centric urban development.

jansan 2y ago
My wife spends more than two hours in public transport every day and believe me, it is the ultimate nightmare, not the ultimate solution.
- eigart 2y ago
  I grew up in a city with well-functioning public transportation. Biggest luxury I ever had. I miss it.
  - Toutouxc 2y ago
    I live in a city with one of the best public transport systems in the world. Anywhere I want to go, there's a bus/tram/trolleybus/subway that goes there and leaves in less than 15 minutes. It costs $150 a year. If that isn't luxury then I don't know what is.
- Toutouxc 2y ago
  Maybe something could be done to make public transport better in your city/region?
rsynnott 2y ago
The eUp at least is getting a replacement (i2) though I think it's delayed til next year.