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I'm Spanish and I've seen many friends dismiss Tesla because of this notion of their cars being cheaply made and because most people here live in flats, and the

I'm Spanish and I've seen many friends dismiss Tesla because of this notion of their cars being cheaply made and because most people here live in flats, and the shared garages don't have sockets for charging them. Many people are leaning towards hybrid vehicles with autonomous features like Hyundai. The suscription model for a car also plays a big role.

mytailorisrich 2y ago
Yes, a bit tangential, but I feel hybrids were discarded too quickly (the 2030/35 ban on new petrol cars includes hybrids) when they should have probably been encouraged as a stepping stone and because indeed in many European areas charging at home is a challenge.
- Tade0 2y ago
  Hybrids weren't making a dent in the ICE car market, whereas EVs are: https://ti-insight.com/briefs/have-internal-combustion-engines-had-their-day/ https://ti-insight.com/briefs/have-internal-combustion-engin... It's just that we don't see it in the geopolitical west, as it's all happening in China, which is currently by far the single largest passenger vehicle market in the world. Personally I drive a hybrid because that was the most electrified car I could afford back in 2017.
- dzhiurgis 2y ago
  Hybrids are just awful cars compared to EVs. Literally worst of both worlds - not performing, costing more and breaking more. Only Toyota can push something this stupid.
sharken 2y ago
An important factor for choosing hybrid is that it must have the same benefits as an EV. In Denmark there has been a trial in Copenhagen, where fossil fueled cars AND hybrids were not allowed on a particular road, only EVs were allowed.
skrebbel 2y ago
Just out of curiosity, wouldn't it be a no-brainer for the owner of the building to layer the roof with solar panels and fill the garage with chargers? Seems like free money in a country with lots of sunshine.
- miahi 2y ago
  The usual problems with this approach are 1) the roof is not big enough for solar panels to power multiple chargers and 2) the power is generated when people are not at home (and probably using their car to go to work).
  - rmu09 2y ago
    Then the obvious solution is to put solar panels over parking spots at work. Doesn't need to be that much power, 1-2kW is enough if the car sits there all day (for typical distances people commute with cars)
- lifestyleguru 2y ago
  Then you'd have to charge during the day and drive during the night.
- gloosx 2y ago
  The most common estimate of the average payback period for solar panels is five to fifteen years. Seems more like a sloppy investment not "free money"
noname120 2y ago
If you can't charge an electric car, you shouldn't take a hybrid either, it's the same problem. If you only charge the battery when braking the overall CO2 footprint over the lifecycle of the car is higher than if you had a thermal vehicle. The reason is a combination of markedly higher CO2-equivalent emissions for manufacturing (two motors instead of one + big battery), increased weight for the same reason which causes an increase in fuel consumption + elevated tire/brakes degradation + decommissioning of the car causes more emissions. And this doesn't include the other negative externalities such as the ecological impact of the additional metal and rare earth extraction. Hybrid cars only make sense from a CO2 perspective if you charge them and drive exclusively on electricity inside cities, with only an occasional fuel refill before long distance trips.
- Retric 2y ago
  > only charge the battery when braking No, good hybrid drivetrains charge the battery during normal driving not just breaking. It saves gas by avoiding the least efficient RPM ranges of the engine. ~80%(battery & conversion losses) of 35% fuel efficiency easily beats 100% of 10% fuel efficiency. Using a 200HP engine to creep around a flat parking lot or run the AC while waiting etc is simply inherently inefficient so they turn the engine off. As a bonus you get that quick EV acceleration without an oversized engine that’s rarely operating efficiently. As to emissions from car manufacturing, don’t ignore emissions from gasoline manufacturing. People get these comparisons wildly wrong by only looking at tailpipe emissions and ignoring upstream extraction, refining, and transportation emissions over the 25+ lifetime of an average car.
- Toutouxc 2y ago
  > two motors instead of one + big battery ... elevated brakes degradation You might be simplifying a bit too much here. The most successful hybrid powertrains are built from the ground up as hybrids and the "hybridized" parts actually replace ICE parts that aren't needed anymore. For example, the HSD system in a Toyota hybrid replaces the clutch, gearbox, starter and alternator, and the result is much more robust. Also the brakes on a hybrid usually degrade slower, because of recuperation.
- nopcode 2y ago

mytailorisrich 2y ago

Yes, a bit tangential, but I feel hybrids were discarded too quickly (the 2030/35 ban on new petrol cars includes hybrids) when they should have probably been encouraged as a stepping stone and because indeed in many European areas charging at home is a challenge.

Tade0 2y ago
Hybrids weren't making a dent in the ICE car market, whereas EVs are: https://ti-insight.com/briefs/have-internal-combustion-engines-had-their-day/ https://ti-insight.com/briefs/have-internal-combustion-engin... It's just that we don't see it in the geopolitical west, as it's all happening in China, which is currently by far the single largest passenger vehicle market in the world. Personally I drive a hybrid because that was the most electrified car I could afford back in 2017.
dzhiurgis 2y ago
Hybrids are just awful cars compared to EVs. Literally worst of both worlds - not performing, costing more and breaking more. Only Toyota can push something this stupid.

sharken 2y ago

An important factor for choosing hybrid is that it must have the same benefits as an EV. In Denmark there has been a trial in Copenhagen, where fossil fueled cars AND hybrids were not allowed on a particular road, only EVs were allowed.

skrebbel 2y ago

Just out of curiosity, wouldn't it be a no-brainer for the owner of the building to layer the roof with solar panels and fill the garage with chargers? Seems like free money in a country with lots of sunshine.

miahi 2y ago
The usual problems with this approach are 1) the roof is not big enough for solar panels to power multiple chargers and 2) the power is generated when people are not at home (and probably using their car to go to work).
- rmu09 2y ago
  Then the obvious solution is to put solar panels over parking spots at work. Doesn't need to be that much power, 1-2kW is enough if the car sits there all day (for typical distances people commute with cars)
lifestyleguru 2y ago
Then you'd have to charge during the day and drive during the night.
gloosx 2y ago
The most common estimate of the average payback period for solar panels is five to fifteen years. Seems more like a sloppy investment not "free money"

noname120 2y ago

If you can't charge an electric car, you shouldn't take a hybrid either, it's the same problem. If you only charge the battery when braking the overall CO2 footprint over the lifecycle of the car is higher than if you had a thermal vehicle. The reason is a combination of markedly higher CO2-equivalent emissions for manufacturing (two motors instead of one + big battery), increased weight for the same reason which causes an increase in fuel consumption + elevated tire/brakes degradation + decommissioning of the car causes more emissions. And this doesn't include the other negative externalities such as the ecological impact of the additional metal and rare earth extraction. Hybrid cars only make sense from a CO2 perspective if you charge them and drive exclusively on electricity inside cities, with only an occasional fuel refill before long distance trips.

Retric 2y ago
> only charge the battery when braking No, good hybrid drivetrains charge the battery during normal driving not just breaking. It saves gas by avoiding the least efficient RPM ranges of the engine. ~80%(battery & conversion losses) of 35% fuel efficiency easily beats 100% of 10% fuel efficiency. Using a 200HP engine to creep around a flat parking lot or run the AC while waiting etc is simply inherently inefficient so they turn the engine off. As a bonus you get that quick EV acceleration without an oversized engine that’s rarely operating efficiently. As to emissions from car manufacturing, don’t ignore emissions from gasoline manufacturing. People get these comparisons wildly wrong by only looking at tailpipe emissions and ignoring upstream extraction, refining, and transportation emissions over the 25+ lifetime of an average car.
Toutouxc 2y ago
> two motors instead of one + big battery ... elevated brakes degradation You might be simplifying a bit too much here. The most successful hybrid powertrains are built from the ground up as hybrids and the "hybridized" parts actually replace ICE parts that aren't needed anymore. For example, the HSD system in a Toyota hybrid replaces the clutch, gearbox, starter and alternator, and the result is much more robust. Also the brakes on a hybrid usually degrade slower, because of recuperation.
nopcode 2y ago