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Sometimes the only way to know something is important is to shut it off and see if anyone complains. For example, lots of stories in https://news.ycombinator.co

Sometimes the only way to know something is important is to shut it off and see if anyone complains. For example, lots of stories in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9629714 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9629714. Now certainly the Trump administration could have been more careful, but they only have 4 years so the Facebook motto of "move fast and break things" applies.

Aurornis 2y ago
> Sometimes the only way to know something is important is to shut it off and see if anyone complains. These government programs aren't stray servers in a closet. Even if you believe that these programs should be stopped, it's entirely wasteful to abruptly end them and let their work in progress just crash out and burn. But it's still a very bad idea to operate this way. There is no rapid feedback loop. The negative effects can be subtle and take years to ripple through the economy and science world.
jbaber 2y ago
I wouldn't do this if there were lives at stake. e.g. turning off circuits in a hospital to see which ones are really necessary. It's a very strong claim to say no lives depend on any federal funding.
- Mathnerd314 2y ago
  All of the important programs have temporary restraining orders. That's actually the standard the judge applies, "is there a possibility of irreparable harm?" (e.g. lives lost). It's not perfect but no system is.
  - freen 2y ago
    USAID saved thousands and thousands of lives every year. And that is a massive understatement of the suffering and misery USAID prevented. It’s gone. People are dying because it’s gone.
    - freen 2y ago
      Downvoted why? By the by, USAID was investigating Starlink in Ukraine. [0] CFPB and Twitter “money” [1] FAA and spacex. Etc etc etc. [0] https://oig.usaid.gov/node/6814 https://oig.usaid.gov/node/6814 [1] https://www.npr.org/2025/02/12/nx-s1-5293382/x-elon-musk-doge-cfpb https://www.npr.org/2025/02/12/nx-s1-5293382/x-elon-musk-dog...
  - vel0city 2y ago
    Hundreds of people now have HIV which could have been prevented from USAID. This number is increasing. These people also can't afford AIDS medications. This is just one of many examples. Your standard given here already isn't being held to in the most basic, obvious ways.
  - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
    Having a temporary restraining order isn't the same as complying with it. Multiple judges have ruled that they are not.
majormajor 2y ago
Have you been paying attention to Republicans over the last 40 years? They don't care if it's useful or important. They don't want government programs to exist. Trump isn't changing that. Don't kid yourself.
- Mathnerd314 2y ago
  There's certainly an argument that anything the government can do, the private sector can do better. That argument would conclude that the government should indeed not exist, and consequently have no programs. The reality is more complicated, something like the microkernel vs. monolithic kernel debate, but it is hard to say that the current distribution between private and public sectors is optimal.
greycol 2y ago
To be rather abrasive in my response: I believe your view is a waste of air. In case I'm correct how about we cut you off from air for a week and if there's a problem we'll restore it then.
- Mathnerd314 2y ago
  That is how a large portion of the internet works, e.g. in most subreddits certain viewpoints will be instantly banned without any discussion. HN is kind of strange in that respect.
  - greycol 2y ago
    I figured it was a rather apt example of how the turn it off and wait until someone complains doesn't work if the damage done in the wait until it's restored time isn't repairable. The abrasive personal example is because he's ignoring that this view has many people's lives at risk when we talk about programs like usaid.
garden_hermit 2y ago
Thats fine for a sofrware startup because it fundamentally doesn't matter. Who cares if your silly website fails after you experiment, no one gets seriously hurt. Shutting off the government means that things can be irreparably damaged. Losing a generation of scientists because of random cullings at the NSF will have effects for decades. In the worst case, "moving fast and breaking things" with the government will kill people. For example, many patients were kicked off clinical trials during the NIH funding freeze. Abroad, the end of PEPFAR could kill untold numbers of people.
ncallaway 2y ago
> but they only have 4 years so the Facebook motto of "move fast and break things" applies. Except with the federal government “things” in many instances refers to people’s lives. What’s the acceptable body count to you, as we approach haphazardly and unconstitutionally reducing the deficit?
acdha 2y ago
> the Facebook motto of "move fast and break things" applies. That’s seriously begging the question of whether a website started to rate the attractiveness of Zuckerberg’s classmates has the same consequences for society if it fails as the government. When you work on something which actually matters, there are virtues other than speed. What the Republicans are doing is like clearing your lawn by setting it on fire, saying they didn’t have time to do anything slower. It’s estimated that just the USAID cuts alone are on the order of hundreds of children being born HIV positive every day, not to mention the impact of food aid disappearing during a famine, or shutting down the last option for afghan women to get educated: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/21/opinion/hiv-usaid-freeze-doge.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/21/opinion/hiv-usaid-freeze-... The science funding has a lower death toll, of course, but it profoundly disrupts careers and pushes people out of the country. Someone educated in the United States who returns to their home country ends up competing with us and probably won’t come back. The grad student getting cut now will probably end up leaving science entirely (people need to make rent and student loan payments) so we’ll be missing out on their lifetime achievements and also the later-career guidance they would have given the next generation. The federal government as a whole becomes less efficient because fewer top people will be willing to work for lower pay without job security and every contractor will be pricing in future disruption.
gilbetron 2y ago
Startups have nowhere to go but up. Large established companies have nowhere to go but down. Why do you think large organizations are so conservative? It's because getting new customers is much harder than losing existing customers. The US government has flaws, but it is phenomenal overall. This is like taking over Apple and tearing apart its culture and management. Only bad will come out of it.
BLKNSLVR 2y ago
Oops, the country died. I won't do that next time.

Aurornis 2y ago

> Sometimes the only way to know something is important is to shut it off and see if anyone complains. These government programs aren't stray servers in a closet. Even if you believe that these programs should be stopped, it's entirely wasteful to abruptly end them and let their work in progress just crash out and burn. But it's still a very bad idea to operate this way. There is no rapid feedback loop. The negative effects can be subtle and take years to ripple through the economy and science world.

jbaber 2y ago

I wouldn't do this if there were lives at stake. e.g. turning off circuits in a hospital to see which ones are really necessary. It's a very strong claim to say no lives depend on any federal funding.

Mathnerd314 2y ago
All of the important programs have temporary restraining orders. That's actually the standard the judge applies, "is there a possibility of irreparable harm?" (e.g. lives lost). It's not perfect but no system is.
- freen 2y ago
  USAID saved thousands and thousands of lives every year. And that is a massive understatement of the suffering and misery USAID prevented. It’s gone. People are dying because it’s gone.
  - freen 2y ago
    Downvoted why? By the by, USAID was investigating Starlink in Ukraine. [0] CFPB and Twitter “money” [1] FAA and spacex. Etc etc etc. [0] https://oig.usaid.gov/node/6814 https://oig.usaid.gov/node/6814 [1] https://www.npr.org/2025/02/12/nx-s1-5293382/x-elon-musk-doge-cfpb https://www.npr.org/2025/02/12/nx-s1-5293382/x-elon-musk-dog...
- vel0city 2y ago
  Hundreds of people now have HIV which could have been prevented from USAID. This number is increasing. These people also can't afford AIDS medications. This is just one of many examples. Your standard given here already isn't being held to in the most basic, obvious ways.
- ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
  Having a temporary restraining order isn't the same as complying with it. Multiple judges have ruled that they are not.

majormajor 2y ago

Have you been paying attention to Republicans over the last 40 years? They don't care if it's useful or important. They don't want government programs to exist. Trump isn't changing that. Don't kid yourself.

Mathnerd314 2y ago
There's certainly an argument that anything the government can do, the private sector can do better. That argument would conclude that the government should indeed not exist, and consequently have no programs. The reality is more complicated, something like the microkernel vs. monolithic kernel debate, but it is hard to say that the current distribution between private and public sectors is optimal.

greycol 2y ago

To be rather abrasive in my response: I believe your view is a waste of air. In case I'm correct how about we cut you off from air for a week and if there's a problem we'll restore it then.

Mathnerd314 2y ago
That is how a large portion of the internet works, e.g. in most subreddits certain viewpoints will be instantly banned without any discussion. HN is kind of strange in that respect.
- greycol 2y ago
  I figured it was a rather apt example of how the turn it off and wait until someone complains doesn't work if the damage done in the wait until it's restored time isn't repairable. The abrasive personal example is because he's ignoring that this view has many people's lives at risk when we talk about programs like usaid.

garden_hermit 2y ago

Thats fine for a sofrware startup because it fundamentally doesn't matter. Who cares if your silly website fails after you experiment, no one gets seriously hurt. Shutting off the government means that things can be irreparably damaged. Losing a generation of scientists because of random cullings at the NSF will have effects for decades. In the worst case, "moving fast and breaking things" with the government will kill people. For example, many patients were kicked off clinical trials during the NIH funding freeze. Abroad, the end of PEPFAR could kill untold numbers of people.

ncallaway 2y ago

> but they only have 4 years so the Facebook motto of "move fast and break things" applies. Except with the federal government “things” in many instances refers to people’s lives. What’s the acceptable body count to you, as we approach haphazardly and unconstitutionally reducing the deficit?

acdha 2y ago

> the Facebook motto of "move fast and break things" applies. That’s seriously begging the question of whether a website started to rate the attractiveness of Zuckerberg’s classmates has the same consequences for society if it fails as the government. When you work on something which actually matters, there are virtues other than speed. What the Republicans are doing is like clearing your lawn by setting it on fire, saying they didn’t have time to do anything slower. It’s estimated that just the USAID cuts alone are on the order of hundreds of children being born HIV positive every day, not to mention the impact of food aid disappearing during a famine, or shutting down the last option for afghan women to get educated: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/21/opinion/hiv-usaid-freeze-doge.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/21/opinion/hiv-usaid-freeze-... The science funding has a lower death toll, of course, but it profoundly disrupts careers and pushes people out of the country. Someone educated in the United States who returns to their home country ends up competing with us and probably won’t come back. The grad student getting cut now will probably end up leaving science entirely (people need to make rent and student loan payments) so we’ll be missing out on their lifetime achievements and also the later-career guidance they would have given the next generation. The federal government as a whole becomes less efficient because fewer top people will be willing to work for lower pay without job security and every contractor will be pricing in future disruption.

gilbetron 2y ago

Startups have nowhere to go but up. Large established companies have nowhere to go but down. Why do you think large organizations are so conservative? It's because getting new customers is much harder than losing existing customers. The US government has flaws, but it is phenomenal overall. This is like taking over Apple and tearing apart its culture and management. Only bad will come out of it.

BLKNSLVR 2y ago

Oops, the country died. I won't do that next time.