4 ms·

There's a reason for that. I ran across a video recently that talked about how his dad would replace an engine over the weekend. But then he showed what the old

There's a reason for that. I ran across a video recently that talked about how his dad would replace an engine over the weekend. But then he showed what the old cars looked like under the hood (very simple with lots of empty space) and new cars (very complicated). More importantly, he showed the manuals that came with the car. The old car's manual showed how the engine was put together and explained what everything did, and how to rebuild it. The new manual was only full of warnings and told you to take it to the dealer for everything. Think about how I (and probably you) learned computers. My IBM PC has a manual that has a page just to show where the power switch is and how to use your hand to flip it. It has a diagram for what the keyboard cable looks like when it's plugged in correctly. It continues on and on and tells you how to open it and what the dip switch settings do. People always thought I was a computer wiz kid when I all I ever did was read the manuals and try out what they said.

noduerme 2y ago
Same. I learned to code as a kid by reading the manual that came with my brother's TRS-80 Model 100 "laptop". The manual contained a complete documentation of the BASIC language that came on the computer. The computer itself, other than a couple simple built-in note-taking and calendar programs, was mainly designed for you to write your own programs for your own use. I remember the first time when I was 8 years old that I got past IF and GOTO and figured out what an array was. Suddenly all kinds of things were possible.
- noisy_boy 2y ago
  I think the crucial missing thing is being locked into undivided boredom. My mom would be getting her afternoon nap and I couldn't go anywhere so I just walked around the house, opened drawers and cabinets and boxes with old parts, magnets and whatnot and experimented with them. With zero distractions, no internet, no mobile phone, nothing. So either read a book (I read mine many times over) or tinker away. And I am still tinkering, just with software instead, while getting paid for it.
  - RRWagner 2y ago
    "Boredom is the fount of learning and creativity"
    - noduerme 2y ago
      But, you must have tools. Some kind of tools. I grew up in the 80s and we were strictly forbidden from watching TV. There were no video games in the house. I only got to see Nintendo at friends houses... and I barely understood how they could get through level after level. Tabletop RPGs were also forbidden. Encouraged: building stuff out of sticks and mud or whatever was in the yard, mandatory reading of history books, chess. In the 80s, my parents viewed computing with equal suspicion to video games. I had to really make a case that what I was doing with BASIC and Pascal and later Hypercard was educational for me... and even then I was restricted to 1 hour per day on the family computer. But I had this 16K TRS80-100 that no one considered a game or a threat... and I was already dialing BBSs at 300 baud and getting kicked off after the parents were asleep. Um. So I've told this all to friends and girlfriends, and often they say "oh wow you were really abused" or something. I don't really fault my parents, I think it was good for me and my siblings in the end. But boredom is not the thing. Limited resources is the thing. Give a mind the ability to make the most of limited resources, and the mind will always find things of interest to stave off boredom. Boredom is the province of those with nothing to think about when not being stimulated. That's why "people who get bored are boring," as my ex used to say.
      - noisy_boy 2y ago
        > Limited resources is the thing I think that is true. When we didn't have access to a proper football at school, we took used notebook papers, made a ball out of it, put that in several layers of small plastic bags (for water proofing) and tightened that in with a thick string looped to cover the surface. It served perfectly as football for a bunch of noisy kids and was easily replaceable. Paucity provides the spark for creativity.
      - amatecha 2y ago
        There's definitely some truth to that. Consider the demoscene, where wildly creative stuff is typical made under certain limitations. For example, demos where the executable + resources is only 64kb [0] or 4kb [1] are often full of surprising creativity. That and of course demos made for primitive systems (by today's standards) like C64 [2] or Commodore Amiga [3]. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCjSG_15kcw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCjSG_15kcw [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCh3Q08HMfs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCh3Q08HMfs [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCmUIcdG5wo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCmUIcdG5wo [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqnZH7Pa3vo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqnZH7Pa3vo
- jeffwask 2y ago
  I learned BASIC to screw with the demo computers at Sears and setup print loops.
ultimafan 2y ago
The empty space in older cars is definitely a big contributer to how much simpler it was to work on them. Plenty of project cars I owned or worked on that had more than enough room in the engine bay to actually STAND inside between the frame and engine with the engine / wiring / hoses still present and both feet planted on the ground. Much less daunting and convenient to work on an engine or replace a part when you don't have to take off (and potentially break) a million other parts to get at what you want to replace and you actually have the room to see what you're doing instead of blindly groping around for something vaguely shaped like something you've only seen a picture of. That and the absolute sheer amount of electronics in modern cars. Older cars had the absolute bear minimal amount of wiring to the point that it was entirely plausible to more or less keep the wiring schematic in your head and even (speaking from experience) redo the entire wiring harness front to back on your own with a few different colored rolls of wire from a hardware store yourself. I can't imagine how people getting into the hobby now with newer cars feel looking at the unholy mess of endless amounts of wiring, sensors, mechanical parts all jammed together in tightly packed space efficient layouts probably designed by someone purely working on them in a digital space. On the bright side at least they have youtube and better resources on the Internet to look up how to actually do something though.
- The_SamminAter 2y ago
  It’s definitely hard(er). I’ve found it’s impossible to get any diagrams or (repair shop) manuals for some dirt-common 2000s/early 2010s vehicles, and have been forced to play many a game of ‘trace the wire.’
  - ultimafan 2y ago
    That's true but YouTube has been a godsend. There's been some mid 2000s cars owned by family or friends I've helped them with (including a transmission swap) where we weren't able to get an entirely satisfactory answer from a service or repair manual but we were almost always able to find several hour videos of random guys on YouTube willing to talk their way through even fairly major jobs and even mention hangups/practical advice for doing it the way the manual wouldn't tell you to but will make the job easier in a home garage setting.
giantg2 2y ago
I think a lot of the older cars either came with or were easier to buy the shop manuals. Those will tell you how to do basically everything. You can still get them for modern cars, but they're $100-250. Even then, many procedures require specialized equipment that most individuals do not have.
- Terr_ 2y ago
  In some cases you can't even buy them anymore, they want a bloody digital subscription. I am very fortunate that my local library maintains digital access to useful stuff.
  - jeffwask 2y ago
    I was stunned to see that Haynes went to that model I used to have a manual for every car I owned
    - piltdownman 2y ago
      TBF digital access and lookup is a far better solution for troubleshooting as opposed to gaining a holistic understanding of the car as an entity. It's more StackOverflow, less 'Inside Macintosh'. More to the point, as cars evolve to digital control and signalling systems with associated firmware, the problems are increasingly diagnosed via the ODB or CAN-BUS and rectified at e.g. and Engine Management System level rather than at a mechanical level. This necessitates up-to-the minute sources of truth detailing the various firmware versions, caveats and advisories - much more suited to a digital medium and distribution channel.
    - potato3732842 2y ago
      The haynes manuals for newer stuff were generally trash but at least they provided information in the same format and order as every other haynes manual so they were useful for that.
jeffwask 2y ago
I replaced the engine on my 1983 Ford Bronco in my driveway year ago. I wouldn't even consider it with a modern car.
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
Likewise, I found a studio tape recorder in a shop once (silver metal, so probably 80's or 90's era), it came with the manual which was mostly just electrical schematics so that you could both figure out exactly how it works, and figure out how to repair or replace components of it.

noduerme 2y ago

Same. I learned to code as a kid by reading the manual that came with my brother's TRS-80 Model 100 "laptop". The manual contained a complete documentation of the BASIC language that came on the computer. The computer itself, other than a couple simple built-in note-taking and calendar programs, was mainly designed for you to write your own programs for your own use. I remember the first time when I was 8 years old that I got past IF and GOTO and figured out what an array was. Suddenly all kinds of things were possible.

noisy_boy 2y ago
I think the crucial missing thing is being locked into undivided boredom. My mom would be getting her afternoon nap and I couldn't go anywhere so I just walked around the house, opened drawers and cabinets and boxes with old parts, magnets and whatnot and experimented with them. With zero distractions, no internet, no mobile phone, nothing. So either read a book (I read mine many times over) or tinker away. And I am still tinkering, just with software instead, while getting paid for it.
- RRWagner 2y ago
  "Boredom is the fount of learning and creativity"
  - noduerme 2y ago
    But, you must have tools. Some kind of tools. I grew up in the 80s and we were strictly forbidden from watching TV. There were no video games in the house. I only got to see Nintendo at friends houses... and I barely understood how they could get through level after level. Tabletop RPGs were also forbidden. Encouraged: building stuff out of sticks and mud or whatever was in the yard, mandatory reading of history books, chess. In the 80s, my parents viewed computing with equal suspicion to video games. I had to really make a case that what I was doing with BASIC and Pascal and later Hypercard was educational for me... and even then I was restricted to 1 hour per day on the family computer. But I had this 16K TRS80-100 that no one considered a game or a threat... and I was already dialing BBSs at 300 baud and getting kicked off after the parents were asleep. Um. So I've told this all to friends and girlfriends, and often they say "oh wow you were really abused" or something. I don't really fault my parents, I think it was good for me and my siblings in the end. But boredom is not the thing. Limited resources is the thing. Give a mind the ability to make the most of limited resources, and the mind will always find things of interest to stave off boredom. Boredom is the province of those with nothing to think about when not being stimulated. That's why "people who get bored are boring," as my ex used to say.
    - noisy_boy 2y ago
      > Limited resources is the thing I think that is true. When we didn't have access to a proper football at school, we took used notebook papers, made a ball out of it, put that in several layers of small plastic bags (for water proofing) and tightened that in with a thick string looped to cover the surface. It served perfectly as football for a bunch of noisy kids and was easily replaceable. Paucity provides the spark for creativity.
    - amatecha 2y ago
      There's definitely some truth to that. Consider the demoscene, where wildly creative stuff is typical made under certain limitations. For example, demos where the executable + resources is only 64kb [0] or 4kb [1] are often full of surprising creativity. That and of course demos made for primitive systems (by today's standards) like C64 [2] or Commodore Amiga [3]. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCjSG_15kcw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCjSG_15kcw [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCh3Q08HMfs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCh3Q08HMfs [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCmUIcdG5wo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCmUIcdG5wo [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqnZH7Pa3vo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqnZH7Pa3vo
jeffwask 2y ago
I learned BASIC to screw with the demo computers at Sears and setup print loops.

ultimafan 2y ago

The empty space in older cars is definitely a big contributer to how much simpler it was to work on them. Plenty of project cars I owned or worked on that had more than enough room in the engine bay to actually STAND inside between the frame and engine with the engine / wiring / hoses still present and both feet planted on the ground. Much less daunting and convenient to work on an engine or replace a part when you don't have to take off (and potentially break) a million other parts to get at what you want to replace and you actually have the room to see what you're doing instead of blindly groping around for something vaguely shaped like something you've only seen a picture of. That and the absolute sheer amount of electronics in modern cars. Older cars had the absolute bear minimal amount of wiring to the point that it was entirely plausible to more or less keep the wiring schematic in your head and even (speaking from experience) redo the entire wiring harness front to back on your own with a few different colored rolls of wire from a hardware store yourself. I can't imagine how people getting into the hobby now with newer cars feel looking at the unholy mess of endless amounts of wiring, sensors, mechanical parts all jammed together in tightly packed space efficient layouts probably designed by someone purely working on them in a digital space. On the bright side at least they have youtube and better resources on the Internet to look up how to actually do something though.

The_SamminAter 2y ago
It’s definitely hard(er). I’ve found it’s impossible to get any diagrams or (repair shop) manuals for some dirt-common 2000s/early 2010s vehicles, and have been forced to play many a game of ‘trace the wire.’
- ultimafan 2y ago
  That's true but YouTube has been a godsend. There's been some mid 2000s cars owned by family or friends I've helped them with (including a transmission swap) where we weren't able to get an entirely satisfactory answer from a service or repair manual but we were almost always able to find several hour videos of random guys on YouTube willing to talk their way through even fairly major jobs and even mention hangups/practical advice for doing it the way the manual wouldn't tell you to but will make the job easier in a home garage setting.

giantg2 2y ago

I think a lot of the older cars either came with or were easier to buy the shop manuals. Those will tell you how to do basically everything. You can still get them for modern cars, but they're $100-250. Even then, many procedures require specialized equipment that most individuals do not have.

Terr_ 2y ago
In some cases you can't even buy them anymore, they want a bloody digital subscription. I am very fortunate that my local library maintains digital access to useful stuff.
- jeffwask 2y ago
  I was stunned to see that Haynes went to that model I used to have a manual for every car I owned
  - piltdownman 2y ago
    TBF digital access and lookup is a far better solution for troubleshooting as opposed to gaining a holistic understanding of the car as an entity. It's more StackOverflow, less 'Inside Macintosh'. More to the point, as cars evolve to digital control and signalling systems with associated firmware, the problems are increasingly diagnosed via the ODB or CAN-BUS and rectified at e.g. and Engine Management System level rather than at a mechanical level. This necessitates up-to-the minute sources of truth detailing the various firmware versions, caveats and advisories - much more suited to a digital medium and distribution channel.
  - potato3732842 2y ago
    The haynes manuals for newer stuff were generally trash but at least they provided information in the same format and order as every other haynes manual so they were useful for that.

jeffwask 2y ago

I replaced the engine on my 1983 Ford Bronco in my driveway year ago. I wouldn't even consider it with a modern car.

Cthulhu_ 2y ago

Likewise, I found a studio tape recorder in a shop once (silver metal, so probably 80's or 90's era), it came with the manual which was mostly just electrical schematics so that you could both figure out exactly how it works, and figure out how to repair or replace components of it.