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Feels like "Signaling a Political Ingroup" is enough of a signal to explain all of these examples? Not that I don't think they aren't also trying at the other

by taeric 2y ago

Feels like "Signaling a Political Ingroup" is enough of a signal to explain all of these examples? Not that I don't think they aren't also trying at the other points. I think they are over explaining, though.

redeux 2y ago
> One caveat: the six triggers are, importantly, specific to Twitter. On Instagram—where a poem might pop up accompanied by a coffee cup or pen artfully in frame, as well as watercolor or pen-and-ink illustrations—even terrible verse rarely provokes vitriol. This stark difference suggests our relationship to art is increasingly shaped by the architectural affordances of the social platforms where we encounter it. I believe this is the point they’re ultimately making.
- taeric 2y ago
  I don't really disagree with that. I'm just challenging that many of those points are how people signal to their in crowd. Also notable that twitter, specifically, is overwhelmingly signalling to the crowd. I think this has been true for a long time, but it does feel that it is more extreme now. My guess is that this would be a more constructive argument against algorithms driving engagement. They are overwhelmingly hijacked by in group signals in ways that curated data, oddly, was not. Not that curation always worked, mind. You could build up more trust that curators at least put some reputation on the line with regards to other factors.
  - munificent 2y ago
    > Also notable that twitter, specifically, is overwhelmingly signalling to the crowd. I think this has been true for a long time, but it does feel that it is more extreme now. There is an interesting positive feedback loop: 1. Some people's messages are intended to be in-group signals and others' are not. 2. Because of the former, people sometimes intepret the latter as implicitly signally membership in the opposing group. 3. Once people start making that interpretation, they start using that deliberately, so now messages that don't look like group signals do look like group signals for the other group. Eventually, the result is that nearly all messages are tribal markers and it's nearly impossible to say anything that isn't just a shibboleth.
- andrelaszlo 2y ago
  There's something to be said about a psychic and her massages.
milesrout 2y ago
I think the form thing is more the issue. These "poems" are not poems. They are prose. Bad prose, but prose. They have no structure, and poetry is structure, that is what makes it poetry. The constraints are what make it interesting and sometimes good. The other issue is vocabulary. The "poems" shown here show their authors' very limited vocabularies. Say something interesting within a constrained structure using interesting language and imagery and you have good poetry. Trite sentiments expressed in "free verse" using ordinary words you would find in any random tweet or blog post or casual conversation, with no imagery? It is so pretentious to call it poetry.
- taeric 2y ago
  Ah, that is attacking what makes these bad poems, as it were? I was more looking at the "go viral" part and feel that is explained enough by the signaling point. Not just in what the alleged poem itself may signal, but what criticizing or praising it will signal.
- nickelpro 2y ago
  lmao the author specifically calls you, yes you, out in the post: > Talky free verse, prose poetry, or spoken word—while seemingly accessible—can also upset readers whose major exposure to poetry was through high school English. The absence of traditional markers they studied in class, like end-rhyme or meter, becomes instant evidence that something is “not real poetry” for this perpetually precocious crowd. I thought this was half sarcasm when I read it, but no, here you are, in the comments.
  - milesrout 2y ago
    Yes I read the same post. What I said remains true. "Talky free verse" and "prose poetry" are misnomers. They aren't poetry. It has nothing to do with what I "studied in class". Words have definitions and "poetry" is meaningless if it means "anything written down at all".
    - nickelpro 2y ago
      We've been searching for the bounds of art, poetry, and music, for millennia without any hope of definition or finality. Thankfully HN user milesrout figured it out. That's a load off my mind.

by taeric 2y ago

redeux 2y ago

> One caveat: the six triggers are, importantly, specific to Twitter. On Instagram—where a poem might pop up accompanied by a coffee cup or pen artfully in frame, as well as watercolor or pen-and-ink illustrations—even terrible verse rarely provokes vitriol. This stark difference suggests our relationship to art is increasingly shaped by the architectural affordances of the social platforms where we encounter it. I believe this is the point they’re ultimately making.

taeric 2y ago
I don't really disagree with that. I'm just challenging that many of those points are how people signal to their in crowd. Also notable that twitter, specifically, is overwhelmingly signalling to the crowd. I think this has been true for a long time, but it does feel that it is more extreme now. My guess is that this would be a more constructive argument against algorithms driving engagement. They are overwhelmingly hijacked by in group signals in ways that curated data, oddly, was not. Not that curation always worked, mind. You could build up more trust that curators at least put some reputation on the line with regards to other factors.
- munificent 2y ago
  > Also notable that twitter, specifically, is overwhelmingly signalling to the crowd. I think this has been true for a long time, but it does feel that it is more extreme now. There is an interesting positive feedback loop: 1. Some people's messages are intended to be in-group signals and others' are not. 2. Because of the former, people sometimes intepret the latter as implicitly signally membership in the opposing group. 3. Once people start making that interpretation, they start using that deliberately, so now messages that don't look like group signals do look like group signals for the other group. Eventually, the result is that nearly all messages are tribal markers and it's nearly impossible to say anything that isn't just a shibboleth.
andrelaszlo 2y ago
There's something to be said about a psychic and her massages.

milesrout 2y ago

I think the form thing is more the issue. These "poems" are not poems. They are prose. Bad prose, but prose. They have no structure, and poetry is structure, that is what makes it poetry. The constraints are what make it interesting and sometimes good. The other issue is vocabulary. The "poems" shown here show their authors' very limited vocabularies. Say something interesting within a constrained structure using interesting language and imagery and you have good poetry. Trite sentiments expressed in "free verse" using ordinary words you would find in any random tweet or blog post or casual conversation, with no imagery? It is so pretentious to call it poetry.

taeric 2y ago
Ah, that is attacking what makes these bad poems, as it were? I was more looking at the "go viral" part and feel that is explained enough by the signaling point. Not just in what the alleged poem itself may signal, but what criticizing or praising it will signal.
nickelpro 2y ago
lmao the author specifically calls you, yes you, out in the post: > Talky free verse, prose poetry, or spoken word—while seemingly accessible—can also upset readers whose major exposure to poetry was through high school English. The absence of traditional markers they studied in class, like end-rhyme or meter, becomes instant evidence that something is “not real poetry” for this perpetually precocious crowd. I thought this was half sarcasm when I read it, but no, here you are, in the comments.
- milesrout 2y ago
  Yes I read the same post. What I said remains true. "Talky free verse" and "prose poetry" are misnomers. They aren't poetry. It has nothing to do with what I "studied in class". Words have definitions and "poetry" is meaningless if it means "anything written down at all".
  - nickelpro 2y ago
    We've been searching for the bounds of art, poetry, and music, for millennia without any hope of definition or finality. Thankfully HN user milesrout figured it out. That's a load off my mind.