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Their chart says 32% of UK doctors are "foreign-trained". I don't know what counts as "foreign-trained" - spending a year studying abroad? But it must be a much

Their chart says 32% of UK doctors are "foreign-trained". I don't know what counts as "foreign-trained" - spending a year studying abroad? But it must be a much broader category than immigrant, because only 19% are foreign nationals, and only 14% are from outside the EU [1], according to UK parliament research. In 2018, 14% of the UK population was born abroad [2]. With the dramatic jump in immigration in 2020 [3], that number will have grown. On that topic: 700 Brit students who aced their A levels have been denied places at medical schools - https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4482182/almost-half-of-doctors-working-in-some-hospitals-are-foreign-trained/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4482182/almost-half-of-doctors... Justify hiring a white person, NHS bosses tell interview panels - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/12/26/justify-hiring-white-person-nhs-bosses-tell-interview-panels/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/12/26/justify-hiring-w... MORE than 60% of Fitness to Practise (FTP) inquiries [in Ireland] completed by the Medical Council in 2010 related to foreign doctors. - https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20141083.html https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20141083.html NHS nurses being investigated for ‘industrial-scale’ qualifications fraud - Scam involves more than 700 healthcare workers who used proxies to pass test in Nigeria enabling them to work in the UK - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/feb/14/nhs-nurses-being-investigated-for-industrial-scale-qualifications https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/feb/14/nhs-nurses-b... So the natives are expected to show gratitude for being forced out of their own medical schools. As for the claims that immigration is needed for the economy - both Denmark and the Netherlands have found that immigrants have been fiscally net negative [4,5]. [1] https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7783/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-born_population_of_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-born_population_of_the... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_United_Kingdom#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_Unit... - see chart [4] https://inquisitivebird.xyz/p/the-effects-of-immigration-in-denmark https://inquisitivebird.xyz/p/the-effects-of-immigration-in-... [5] https://www.iza.org/publications/dp/17569/the-long-term-fiscal-impact-of-immigrants-in-the-netherlands-differentiated-by-motive-source-region-and-generation https://www.iza.org/publications/dp/17569/the-long-term-fisc...

eesmith 2y ago
You have misread your sources. The 32% is for doctors, the 19% is for all staff. You wrote "But it must be a much broader category than immigrant, because only 19% [of UK doctors] are foreign nationals, and only 14% are from outside the EU [1]" Your [1] says "Overall, 18.7% of staff report a nationality other than British. For doctors this figure is 35.0%, and for nurses it is 27.2%." Your The Sun uses the same number: "Official figures reveal more than a third of the 113,000 doctors working in hospitals in England now come from abroad." Instead of spending time to post 8 or so different links, it took me about a minute to find the OECD study at https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/recent-trends-in-international-migration-of-doctors-nurses-and-medical-students_5571ef48-en.html https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/recent-trends-in-intern... which defines foreign-trained as people who received their first medical or nursing in another country, noting that "a certain number of foreign-trained doctors or nurses may be people who were born in a country and decided to pursue their studies in another country before returning to their home country". How is a summary of the 36 FTP inquiries in Ireland in 2010 at all relevant? It comes across like you've spread a wide net to bring up any anti-foreigner sources, while likely omitting all pro-foreigner sources.
- like_any_other 2y ago
  I concede my error on the statistics, thank you for catching it. > It comes across like you've spread a wide net to bring up any anti-foreigner sources, while likely omitting all pro-foreigner sources. Sure, let me show you some pro-foreigner, or rather, pro-diversity sources (I hope you don't mind examples from across the pond): America’s schools are more diverse than ever. But the teachers are still mostly white. - https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/local/education/teacher-diversity/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/local/education... Democratic Virginia gubernatorial candidate Terry McAuliffe called for the commonwealth to “diversify” its teacher base, complaining that too many educators there are white. - https://nypost.com/2021/11/01/mcauliffe-laments-number-of-white-teachers-ahead-of-gov-vote/ https://nypost.com/2021/11/01/mcauliffe-laments-number-of-wh... England manager Sarina Wiegman says "we need to do more" to improve diversity in English women's football. - https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/63585482 https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/63585482 Why America needs more diversity in the doctor's office - https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2023-08-04/why-america-needs-more-diversity-in-the-doctors-office https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2023-08-04/why-ameri... 'Why is climate activism so middle class and white?' - https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-leicestershire-51873499 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-leicestershire-518734... We need to face uncomfortable truths about diversity in our medical workforce - https://www.bmj.com/content/388/bmj.r293 https://www.bmj.com/content/388/bmj.r293 When non-whites are over-represented in a profession, this shows the necessity of diversity and immigration, and we should be grateful for their valuable contributions. When whites are over-represented, this is because of racism and discrimination and we need to do more to reduce their number.

eesmith 2y ago

You have misread your sources. The 32% is for doctors, the 19% is for all staff. You wrote "But it must be a much broader category than immigrant, because only 19% [of UK doctors] are foreign nationals, and only 14% are from outside the EU [1]" Your [1] says "Overall, 18.7% of staff report a nationality other than British. For doctors this figure is 35.0%, and for nurses it is 27.2%." Your The Sun uses the same number: "Official figures reveal more than a third of the 113,000 doctors working in hospitals in England now come from abroad." Instead of spending time to post 8 or so different links, it took me about a minute to find the OECD study at https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/recent-trends-in-international-migration-of-doctors-nurses-and-medical-students_5571ef48-en.html https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/recent-trends-in-intern... which defines foreign-trained as people who received their first medical or nursing in another country, noting that "a certain number of foreign-trained doctors or nurses may be people who were born in a country and decided to pursue their studies in another country before returning to their home country". How is a summary of the 36 FTP inquiries in Ireland in 2010 at all relevant? It comes across like you've spread a wide net to bring up any anti-foreigner sources, while likely omitting all pro-foreigner sources.

like_any_other 2y ago
I concede my error on the statistics, thank you for catching it. > It comes across like you've spread a wide net to bring up any anti-foreigner sources, while likely omitting all pro-foreigner sources. Sure, let me show you some pro-foreigner, or rather, pro-diversity sources (I hope you don't mind examples from across the pond): America’s schools are more diverse than ever. But the teachers are still mostly white. - https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/local/education/teacher-diversity/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/local/education... Democratic Virginia gubernatorial candidate Terry McAuliffe called for the commonwealth to “diversify” its teacher base, complaining that too many educators there are white. - https://nypost.com/2021/11/01/mcauliffe-laments-number-of-white-teachers-ahead-of-gov-vote/ https://nypost.com/2021/11/01/mcauliffe-laments-number-of-wh... England manager Sarina Wiegman says "we need to do more" to improve diversity in English women's football. - https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/63585482 https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/63585482 Why America needs more diversity in the doctor's office - https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2023-08-04/why-america-needs-more-diversity-in-the-doctors-office https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2023-08-04/why-ameri... 'Why is climate activism so middle class and white?' - https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-leicestershire-51873499 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-leicestershire-518734... We need to face uncomfortable truths about diversity in our medical workforce - https://www.bmj.com/content/388/bmj.r293 https://www.bmj.com/content/388/bmj.r293 When non-whites are over-represented in a profession, this shows the necessity of diversity and immigration, and we should be grateful for their valuable contributions. When whites are over-represented, this is because of racism and discrimination and we need to do more to reduce their number.