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> tax those people appropriately and pump that money back into the economy So make the US to be like a far less successful country? Kill your economy by increa

> tax those people appropriately and pump that money back into the economy So make the US to be like a far less successful country? Kill your economy by increasing taxes? The US economy is singularly successful because it has incentives to build businesses - see YC. Have you tried living in a country that doesn't encourage businesses? They are often great tourist destinations. I'm in New Zealand and too many ambitious young people leave here: we have an emigration problem because our economy sucks. The government fixes the economy with 30% immigrants (disclaimer: I love immigrants). I have many friends that are never coming back here except for holidays. I hate the New Zealand government incentives for businesses (taxation and regulation) and I can see no way to fix them. Even our "business" political party ACT is completely fucked (latest story - they will be selling everything profitable to overseas "investors" - destroying the economy). Taxation incentives matter to businesses. Be careful what you ask for because the majority have little understanding and vote for the wrong incentives. Even business owners don't seem to understand incentive systems that well. Perhaps game designers do?

llamaimperative 2y ago
Do income taxes on the 60th percentile earner completely kill their incentive to earn an income? Then why would ensuring the same effective tax rate on the 99th percentile kill their incentive?
- robocat 2y ago
  The ultra-wealthy appear as toxic to me too. However I believe that incentives need to be marginal. If you already have a lot perhaps you need a big carrot as your incentive? I don't know any billionaires that I can ask how they feel about taxation incentives: I reckon you are making assumptions about what you think they should feel. What makes Tim Cook make the US more money? Taxation cliffs are shit. In New Zealand our Green party decided that 1 million was enough. Why would you bother growing a business after you reached 1 million? Retirement? A business is defined as being about making money (albeit some people do run "businesses" for other outcomes - why is Warren Buffett still working?). High marginal taxation is also shit IMHO. The hard part is to design the incentives so that productive people build your economy for the benefit of everybody. If a government discourages business then the economy is crap and everybody suffers. See other economies. Few people understand the incentives of others, and few people understand how wealth is created for all: the hoi polloi dismiss the wealthy as vampiric money grubbers. Anyone who uses the word capitalist in a derogatory way has been brainwashed. Most everything that makes our economies work is invisible non-monetary rewards. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43162596 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43162596 I can speak for my own financial incentives. My perception is that I have an effective tax rate of well over 50% in New Zealand (any retirement savings are not safe because our demographics and governments will screw our economy). I do not feel the incentive to work in a business - My attitude means I now produce marginally less than I could for the New Zealand economy (I still pay taxes so they are advantaged but they could get a lot lot more from me). I now mostly selfishly concentrate on those closest to me. Why should I work if it isn't marginally beneficial enough for me? I'm no more selfish than my retired friends that I know (a wide variety of people from many walks of life). (Reëdited to expand and clarify). We can't decide how much is fair. Compare yourself to a dead king - what is fair? We can design systemic incentives so that we each make the world better for everyone. Not that that it is easy... Trite thoughtless dismissals of the most productive members of society are not helpful. Edit 2: I guess this discussion is as close to work as it gets for me. Too much adulting. Should I get into politics? Are morals an impediment to helping others? There are too few politicians I admire, and too many I wouldn't want to shake hands with or be associated with. Every idiot has political opinions - how much of an idiot am I? Every politician is smart enough to win an election - they are not stupid yet they make too many horrific mistakes. What about the cryptically smart ones? I see how systems affect people that join a system. What would I become if I join our political system? Understanding our different systems is hard because they grow so weirdly with vestigial complexities due to history, complex interactions, and reflexivity.
johnnyanmac 2y ago
Yeah, screw that. Capital taxes are at record lows and they want to make it lower at the cost of Medicare and Medicaid. They are parasites at this point. If they think they can find lower taxes than 22% they are happy to leave. As if they aren't already avoiding taxes.
- robocat 2y ago
  I will respond by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology) myself. Do Medicare and Medicaid exist without businesses? I'm from New Zealand and our society causes problems for our socialised healthcare. Businesses are symbionts: productive societies accept some costs from businesses so long as the society get more gains. Why do you look at money as though that is all that matters? Who measures the benefits we get from modern society? Finding downsides and complaining about them is too easy. Looking for upsides is less popular. Every poor person I've met avoids taxes.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    >Do Medicare and Medicaid exist without businesses? In a purely technical sense, yes. Because you don't necessarily need an American salary to pay taxes that cover these facilities. It was very much a concerted effort for most other non-govt Healthcare to be tied to often American jobs. Which of course causes a cacophony of problems when less employers are even offering full time work. >Why do you look at money as though that is all that matters? It does not, but business these days sucked up enough money that it's starting to affect basic survival, let alone any pursuit of happiness. There's no point finding upsides when the common person is is so low on the totem pole. Making hypotheticals of "well look on the bright side, you're not dead" doesn't help either. When America starts using that wealth to make sure no one in a first person country isn't dying on the street, we can discuss the subtleties of capitalism. >Every poor person I've met avoids taxes. Well I can't speak for New Zealand. You can't tax a poor person with no income. That's how bad the situation is here.
    - robocat 2y ago

llamaimperative 2y ago

Do income taxes on the 60th percentile earner completely kill their incentive to earn an income? Then why would ensuring the same effective tax rate on the 99th percentile kill their incentive?

robocat 2y ago
The ultra-wealthy appear as toxic to me too. However I believe that incentives need to be marginal. If you already have a lot perhaps you need a big carrot as your incentive? I don't know any billionaires that I can ask how they feel about taxation incentives: I reckon you are making assumptions about what you think they should feel. What makes Tim Cook make the US more money? Taxation cliffs are shit. In New Zealand our Green party decided that 1 million was enough. Why would you bother growing a business after you reached 1 million? Retirement? A business is defined as being about making money (albeit some people do run "businesses" for other outcomes - why is Warren Buffett still working?). High marginal taxation is also shit IMHO. The hard part is to design the incentives so that productive people build your economy for the benefit of everybody. If a government discourages business then the economy is crap and everybody suffers. See other economies. Few people understand the incentives of others, and few people understand how wealth is created for all: the hoi polloi dismiss the wealthy as vampiric money grubbers. Anyone who uses the word capitalist in a derogatory way has been brainwashed. Most everything that makes our economies work is invisible non-monetary rewards. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43162596 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43162596 I can speak for my own financial incentives. My perception is that I have an effective tax rate of well over 50% in New Zealand (any retirement savings are not safe because our demographics and governments will screw our economy). I do not feel the incentive to work in a business - My attitude means I now produce marginally less than I could for the New Zealand economy (I still pay taxes so they are advantaged but they could get a lot lot more from me). I now mostly selfishly concentrate on those closest to me. Why should I work if it isn't marginally beneficial enough for me? I'm no more selfish than my retired friends that I know (a wide variety of people from many walks of life). (Reëdited to expand and clarify). We can't decide how much is fair. Compare yourself to a dead king - what is fair? We can design systemic incentives so that we each make the world better for everyone. Not that that it is easy... Trite thoughtless dismissals of the most productive members of society are not helpful. Edit 2: I guess this discussion is as close to work as it gets for me. Too much adulting. Should I get into politics? Are morals an impediment to helping others? There are too few politicians I admire, and too many I wouldn't want to shake hands with or be associated with. Every idiot has political opinions - how much of an idiot am I? Every politician is smart enough to win an election - they are not stupid yet they make too many horrific mistakes. What about the cryptically smart ones? I see how systems affect people that join a system. What would I become if I join our political system? Understanding our different systems is hard because they grow so weirdly with vestigial complexities due to history, complex interactions, and reflexivity.

johnnyanmac 2y ago

Yeah, screw that. Capital taxes are at record lows and they want to make it lower at the cost of Medicare and Medicaid. They are parasites at this point. If they think they can find lower taxes than 22% they are happy to leave. As if they aren't already avoiding taxes.

robocat 2y ago
I will respond by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology) myself. Do Medicare and Medicaid exist without businesses? I'm from New Zealand and our society causes problems for our socialised healthcare. Businesses are symbionts: productive societies accept some costs from businesses so long as the society get more gains. Why do you look at money as though that is all that matters? Who measures the benefits we get from modern society? Finding downsides and complaining about them is too easy. Looking for upsides is less popular. Every poor person I've met avoids taxes.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  >Do Medicare and Medicaid exist without businesses? In a purely technical sense, yes. Because you don't necessarily need an American salary to pay taxes that cover these facilities. It was very much a concerted effort for most other non-govt Healthcare to be tied to often American jobs. Which of course causes a cacophony of problems when less employers are even offering full time work. >Why do you look at money as though that is all that matters? It does not, but business these days sucked up enough money that it's starting to affect basic survival, let alone any pursuit of happiness. There's no point finding upsides when the common person is is so low on the totem pole. Making hypotheticals of "well look on the bright side, you're not dead" doesn't help either. When America starts using that wealth to make sure no one in a first person country isn't dying on the street, we can discuss the subtleties of capitalism. >Every poor person I've met avoids taxes. Well I can't speak for New Zealand. You can't tax a poor person with no income. That's how bad the situation is here.
  - robocat 2y ago