8 ms·

Here's another idea: tax those people appropriately and pump that money back into the economy... Way easier and more globally optimal than just saying we're go

Here's another idea: tax those people appropriately and pump that money back into the economy... Way easier and more globally optimal than just saying we're going to do absolutely everything (even the shitty jobs) here in the US.

lenerdenator 2y ago
If there's one thing those people hate more than paying Americans to do labor, it's paying taxes.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  And...? Everyone hates paying taxes. Normal Americans pay them anyway.
  - cmdrk 2y ago
    Indeed, but the hallowed Job Creators have the means to influence the people in power to make the taxes go away.
  - t-3 2y ago
    Do "normal Americans" pay taxes? From the numbers I've seen, ~1/3 - ~1/2 of tax filers receive more money from the government than they pay. To them, "refund season" is a cause for celebration rather than a stressful event.
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      I'm a normal American and owe 6000 this year to the Feds, so yes. W-2 get refunds because the Feds took out too much from their paycheck beforehand.
      - t-3 2y ago
        I'm a normal American and have only once paid more than I've received for federal taxes. Withholding has nothing to do with it.
        johnnyanmac 2y ago
        Withholding has everything to do with it. Why do you think $10 an hour comes down to 1200 instead of 1600/month? You can choose to withhold more or less, but the default taxation on w-2's do generally give a bit of a refund. Better to take out too much when you don't need it than slam down a gigantic bill when at once a year later.
        t-3 2y ago
        If the refund is more than I paid in total, I would get a refund if I didn't pay anything at all though.
        llamaimperative 2y ago
        [flagged]
    - dragonwriter 2y ago
      > Do "normal Americans" pay taxes? Yes. The on-average crossover between negative and positive net total federal income (individuals will differ because of individual circumstance beyond just income level) tax when taking into account refundable credits (most notably, but not exclusively, EITC) is a bit below the median personal income but not that far below it, so certainly lots of individual "normal" (by most reasonable definitions) Americans do not pay net federal income tax . But even if they don't pay net federal income taxes, they probably still pay a net positive amount in a variety of state taxes, federal payroll taxes, and federal consumption taxes (e.g., gas tax.)
    - swiftcoder 2y ago
      "Refund season" is mostly a thing because the default w2 withholdings are set at a level where you slightly overpay on each paycheque, to avoid a surprise tax bill at the end of the year.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    And congress is trying to kowtow to it as we speak https://www.newsweek.com/nearly-all-republicans-vote-against-conditioning-tax-cuts-wealthy-2034439 https://www.newsweek.com/nearly-all-republicans-vote-against... If we don't put pressure, those people will get their way.
airstrike 2y ago
The problem with taxes is that it's a prisoner's dilemma. You need global cooperation at some base level of taxes, otherwise companies move to more favorable tax jurisdictions in the long term and offshore from there, which would hurt the US even more. It doesn't have to be all-or-nothing, but any marginal dollar of increased taxes in one place will have some non-zero effect of encouraging the next investment dollar to be spent elsewhere. To be clear, I do think capital gains taxes are criminally low in the US relative to income tax, so I'm not arguing in _favor_ of lower taxes. I'm just saying why raising taxes isn't a panacea.
- Jolter 2y ago
  You can raise US company taxes and capital gains tax a lot before the US stops being a low-tax country. You’re not wrong, of course, about how every tax percentage point matters. But Americans arguing that their taxes are too high is never not hilarious.
typon 2y ago
Creating an underclass that relies on economic elites paying taxes rather than being economically independent because you want to optimize for "high value add industries" is a terrible long term strategy.
robocat 2y ago
> tax those people appropriately and pump that money back into the economy So make the US to be like a far less successful country? Kill your economy by increasing taxes? The US economy is singularly successful because it has incentives to build businesses - see YC. Have you tried living in a country that doesn't encourage businesses? They are often great tourist destinations. I'm in New Zealand and too many ambitious young people leave here: we have an emigration problem because our economy sucks. The government fixes the economy with 30% immigrants (disclaimer: I love immigrants). I have many friends that are never coming back here except for holidays. I hate the New Zealand government incentives for businesses (taxation and regulation) and I can see no way to fix them. Even our "business" political party ACT is completely fucked (latest story - they will be selling everything profitable to overseas "investors" - destroying the economy). Taxation incentives matter to businesses. Be careful what you ask for because the majority have little understanding and vote for the wrong incentives. Even business owners don't seem to understand incentive systems that well. Perhaps game designers do?
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  Do income taxes on the 60th percentile earner completely kill their incentive to earn an income? Then why would ensuring the same effective tax rate on the 99th percentile kill their incentive?
  - robocat 2y ago
    The ultra-wealthy appear as toxic to me too. However I believe that incentives need to be marginal. If you already have a lot perhaps you need a big carrot as your incentive? I don't know any billionaires that I can ask how they feel about taxation incentives: I reckon you are making assumptions about what you think they should feel. What makes Tim Cook make the US more money? Taxation cliffs are shit. In New Zealand our Green party decided that 1 million was enough. Why would you bother growing a business after you reached 1 million? Retirement? A business is defined as being about making money (albeit some people do run "businesses" for other outcomes - why is Warren Buffett still working?). High marginal taxation is also shit IMHO. The hard part is to design the incentives so that productive people build your economy for the benefit of everybody. If a government discourages business then the economy is crap and everybody suffers. See other economies. Few people understand the incentives of others, and few people understand how wealth is created for all: the hoi polloi dismiss the wealthy as vampiric money grubbers. Anyone who uses the word capitalist in a derogatory way has been brainwashed. Most everything that makes our economies work is invisible non-monetary rewards. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43162596 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43162596 I can speak for my own financial incentives. My perception is that I have an effective tax rate of well over 50% in New Zealand (any retirement savings are not safe because our demographics and governments will screw our economy). I do not feel the incentive to work in a business - My attitude means I now produce marginally less than I could for the New Zealand economy (I still pay taxes so they are advantaged but they could get a lot lot more from me). I now mostly selfishly concentrate on those closest to me. Why should I work if it isn't marginally beneficial enough for me? I'm no more selfish than my retired friends that I know (a wide variety of people from many walks of life). (Reëdited to expand and clarify). We can't decide how much is fair. Compare yourself to a dead king - what is fair? We can design systemic incentives so that we each make the world better for everyone. Not that that it is easy... Trite thoughtless dismissals of the most productive members of society are not helpful. Edit 2: I guess this discussion is as close to work as it gets for me. Too much adulting. Should I get into politics? Are morals an impediment to helping others? There are too few politicians I admire, and too many I wouldn't want to shake hands with or be associated with. Every idiot has political opinions - how much of an idiot am I? Every politician is smart enough to win an election - they are not stupid yet they make too many horrific mistakes. What about the cryptically smart ones? I see how systems affect people that join a system. What would I become if I join our political system? Understanding our different systems is hard because they grow so weirdly with vestigial complexities due to history, complex interactions, and reflexivity.
edgyquant 2y ago
So, like a tariff?
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  No
rayiner 2y ago
That doesn’t work and people don’t want handouts they want jobs. And money can’t fix the problem of destroying your industrial base if there’s a war.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  What makes you think I’m describing handouts or destroying your industrial base? Was the New Deal an industry-destroying handout?

lenerdenator 2y ago

If there's one thing those people hate more than paying Americans to do labor, it's paying taxes.

llamaimperative 2y ago
And...? Everyone hates paying taxes. Normal Americans pay them anyway.
- cmdrk 2y ago
  Indeed, but the hallowed Job Creators have the means to influence the people in power to make the taxes go away.
- t-3 2y ago
  Do "normal Americans" pay taxes? From the numbers I've seen, ~1/3 - ~1/2 of tax filers receive more money from the government than they pay. To them, "refund season" is a cause for celebration rather than a stressful event.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    I'm a normal American and owe 6000 this year to the Feds, so yes. W-2 get refunds because the Feds took out too much from their paycheck beforehand.
    - t-3 2y ago
      I'm a normal American and have only once paid more than I've received for federal taxes. Withholding has nothing to do with it.
      - johnnyanmac 2y ago
        Withholding has everything to do with it. Why do you think $10 an hour comes down to 1200 instead of 1600/month? You can choose to withhold more or less, but the default taxation on w-2's do generally give a bit of a refund. Better to take out too much when you don't need it than slam down a gigantic bill when at once a year later.
        t-3 2y ago
        If the refund is more than I paid in total, I would get a refund if I didn't pay anything at all though.
      - llamaimperative 2y ago
        [flagged]
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    > Do "normal Americans" pay taxes? Yes. The on-average crossover between negative and positive net total federal income (individuals will differ because of individual circumstance beyond just income level) tax when taking into account refundable credits (most notably, but not exclusively, EITC) is a bit below the median personal income but not that far below it, so certainly lots of individual "normal" (by most reasonable definitions) Americans do not pay net federal income tax . But even if they don't pay net federal income taxes, they probably still pay a net positive amount in a variety of state taxes, federal payroll taxes, and federal consumption taxes (e.g., gas tax.)
  - swiftcoder 2y ago
    "Refund season" is mostly a thing because the default w2 withholdings are set at a level where you slightly overpay on each paycheque, to avoid a surprise tax bill at the end of the year.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  And congress is trying to kowtow to it as we speak https://www.newsweek.com/nearly-all-republicans-vote-against-conditioning-tax-cuts-wealthy-2034439 https://www.newsweek.com/nearly-all-republicans-vote-against... If we don't put pressure, those people will get their way.

airstrike 2y ago

The problem with taxes is that it's a prisoner's dilemma. You need global cooperation at some base level of taxes, otherwise companies move to more favorable tax jurisdictions in the long term and offshore from there, which would hurt the US even more. It doesn't have to be all-or-nothing, but any marginal dollar of increased taxes in one place will have some non-zero effect of encouraging the next investment dollar to be spent elsewhere. To be clear, I do think capital gains taxes are criminally low in the US relative to income tax, so I'm not arguing in _favor_ of lower taxes. I'm just saying why raising taxes isn't a panacea.

Jolter 2y ago
You can raise US company taxes and capital gains tax a lot before the US stops being a low-tax country. You’re not wrong, of course, about how every tax percentage point matters. But Americans arguing that their taxes are too high is never not hilarious.

typon 2y ago

Creating an underclass that relies on economic elites paying taxes rather than being economically independent because you want to optimize for "high value add industries" is a terrible long term strategy.

robocat 2y ago

> tax those people appropriately and pump that money back into the economy So make the US to be like a far less successful country? Kill your economy by increasing taxes? The US economy is singularly successful because it has incentives to build businesses - see YC. Have you tried living in a country that doesn't encourage businesses? They are often great tourist destinations. I'm in New Zealand and too many ambitious young people leave here: we have an emigration problem because our economy sucks. The government fixes the economy with 30% immigrants (disclaimer: I love immigrants). I have many friends that are never coming back here except for holidays. I hate the New Zealand government incentives for businesses (taxation and regulation) and I can see no way to fix them. Even our "business" political party ACT is completely fucked (latest story - they will be selling everything profitable to overseas "investors" - destroying the economy). Taxation incentives matter to businesses. Be careful what you ask for because the majority have little understanding and vote for the wrong incentives. Even business owners don't seem to understand incentive systems that well. Perhaps game designers do?

llamaimperative 2y ago
Do income taxes on the 60th percentile earner completely kill their incentive to earn an income? Then why would ensuring the same effective tax rate on the 99th percentile kill their incentive?
- robocat 2y ago
  The ultra-wealthy appear as toxic to me too. However I believe that incentives need to be marginal. If you already have a lot perhaps you need a big carrot as your incentive? I don't know any billionaires that I can ask how they feel about taxation incentives: I reckon you are making assumptions about what you think they should feel. What makes Tim Cook make the US more money? Taxation cliffs are shit. In New Zealand our Green party decided that 1 million was enough. Why would you bother growing a business after you reached 1 million? Retirement? A business is defined as being about making money (albeit some people do run "businesses" for other outcomes - why is Warren Buffett still working?). High marginal taxation is also shit IMHO. The hard part is to design the incentives so that productive people build your economy for the benefit of everybody. If a government discourages business then the economy is crap and everybody suffers. See other economies. Few people understand the incentives of others, and few people understand how wealth is created for all: the hoi polloi dismiss the wealthy as vampiric money grubbers. Anyone who uses the word capitalist in a derogatory way has been brainwashed. Most everything that makes our economies work is invisible non-monetary rewards. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43162596 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43162596 I can speak for my own financial incentives. My perception is that I have an effective tax rate of well over 50% in New Zealand (any retirement savings are not safe because our demographics and governments will screw our economy). I do not feel the incentive to work in a business - My attitude means I now produce marginally less than I could for the New Zealand economy (I still pay taxes so they are advantaged but they could get a lot lot more from me). I now mostly selfishly concentrate on those closest to me. Why should I work if it isn't marginally beneficial enough for me? I'm no more selfish than my retired friends that I know (a wide variety of people from many walks of life). (Reëdited to expand and clarify). We can't decide how much is fair. Compare yourself to a dead king - what is fair? We can design systemic incentives so that we each make the world better for everyone. Not that that it is easy... Trite thoughtless dismissals of the most productive members of society are not helpful. Edit 2: I guess this discussion is as close to work as it gets for me. Too much adulting. Should I get into politics? Are morals an impediment to helping others? There are too few politicians I admire, and too many I wouldn't want to shake hands with or be associated with. Every idiot has political opinions - how much of an idiot am I? Every politician is smart enough to win an election - they are not stupid yet they make too many horrific mistakes. What about the cryptically smart ones? I see how systems affect people that join a system. What would I become if I join our political system? Understanding our different systems is hard because they grow so weirdly with vestigial complexities due to history, complex interactions, and reflexivity.

edgyquant 2y ago

So, like a tariff?

llamaimperative 2y ago
No

rayiner 2y ago

That doesn’t work and people don’t want handouts they want jobs. And money can’t fix the problem of destroying your industrial base if there’s a war.

llamaimperative 2y ago
What makes you think I’m describing handouts or destroying your industrial base? Was the New Deal an industry-destroying handout?