4 ms·

Tangential, but I would really like frames to come back for incremental document updates, like LiveView/Hotwire/HTMX. You can just start working like that today

Tangential, but I would really like frames to come back for incremental document updates, like LiveView/Hotwire/HTMX. You can just start working like that today with one of those libraries, but it would be so neat to have a common standard for describing an update to a targeted frame.

snarkyturtle 2y ago
Isn't that the use-case for Micro Frontend Architecture? I've always viewed it as a second-coming of Frames. https://micro-frontends.org/ https://micro-frontends.org/
- lelandfe 2y ago
  I consider frames to be an example of MFE, actually. I believe I remember reading that Spotify (long ago) used frames in their app so each team could be self-contained. Edit: In fact, I'm pretty sure Geers' book associated with that site says as much.
alabastervlog 2y ago
HTML has a bunch of good stuff in it that'd replace the need for so much heavy and slow and non-native-feeling javascript if that'd just been improved. Lots of it's now rarely used because it sucks, but there's no good reason it has to suck. It's like whole sections of the spec just got abandoned around 2005, but the need is still there.
- tombert 2y ago
  The <blink> tag needs to make a comeback; I'm so tired of having to write my own JavaScript to get annoying flashy text. In all seriousness, I'm not entirely sure why so many features in HTML are eschewed in favor of a slow JS mess. It doesn't feel like bolting on an entire relatively-slow programming language is going to make your code more organized than a relatively easy to use tag.
  - alabastervlog 2y ago
    We could have datasource-backed tables and list elements. Built-in. Sorting for most purposes, "for free", and more with simple and light JS hooks for sort functions. Frames that actually work as useful UI elements. "Basic auth" screens that look and function well enough for lots of purposes. Something like "Apple Pay" or other external payment systems but built into the browser, replacing stupid amounts of time spent writing yet another payment form (and usually fucking it up in several ways) But no.
  - lelandfe 2y ago
    > I'm so tired of having to write my own JavaScript to get annoying flashy text Fret no more: <style> .blink { animation: blink 1s steps(2, start) infinite; } @keyframes blink { 50% { visibility: hidden; } } </style> <p class="blink">Lorem ipsum</p> https://jsfiddle.net/xrkLt2nz/ https://jsfiddle.net/xrkLt2nz/
    - tombert 2y ago
      This is certainly better than nothing, but it should just be a tag! I shouldn't need this fancy new-fangled "CSS" fad to bail me out of the problems that W3C created by removing it in the first place!
      - lelandfe 2y ago
        Definitely. Much less the many several users who yet lack CSS support in their preferred browser.
        tombert 2y ago
        The good news is that <marquee> still works in the latest Firefox. No need for any new-fangled animation libraries for me.
    - Sohcahtoa82 2y ago
      If front-end devs would stop reinventing things using JS that can be done in CSS, I'd be so happy.
jonathanhefner 2y ago
Agreed! There is a proposal for something like that in the WHATWG repo: https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/8538 https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/8538
jodydonetti 2y ago
What are you missing by using iframes (still standard, supported, working) + css for layouting that old school frames would give you?
- graypegg 2y ago
  The targeting for updates. Something like hotwire/turbo frames allows you to push a form's response to any turbo-frame. You can also push updates to multiple frames at once. They're matched by frame ID, much like target="", but in the case of iframes, the iframe is the only thing that can update the interior HTML. (other than just changing the URL from the parent application) iframes are also in a rather locked-down security model, even if they exist on the same domain. (Requires message passing, strict CORS rules, strict cookies rules etc)
evantbyrne 2y ago
I'm just happy we can find DOM elements by CSS selectors now. Full browser support for calc was almost too much excitement for me
earthboundkid 2y ago
The main problem with frames is that you need to use JS to get it to be responsively sized. If they would fix that, frames would be perfect. They actually do what people just think Web Components do. I.E. they are actually isolated from the styles of the host page and have an actual security boundary preventing malicious execution.
recursivedoubts 2y ago
Alex and (to a much lesser extent) I are trying to get a modernized version into the HTML spec: https://github.com/alexpetros/triptych https://github.com/alexpetros/triptych

snarkyturtle 2y ago

Isn't that the use-case for Micro Frontend Architecture? I've always viewed it as a second-coming of Frames. https://micro-frontends.org/ https://micro-frontends.org/

lelandfe 2y ago
I consider frames to be an example of MFE, actually. I believe I remember reading that Spotify (long ago) used frames in their app so each team could be self-contained. Edit: In fact, I'm pretty sure Geers' book associated with that site says as much.

alabastervlog 2y ago

HTML has a bunch of good stuff in it that'd replace the need for so much heavy and slow and non-native-feeling javascript if that'd just been improved. Lots of it's now rarely used because it sucks, but there's no good reason it has to suck. It's like whole sections of the spec just got abandoned around 2005, but the need is still there.

tombert 2y ago
The <blink> tag needs to make a comeback; I'm so tired of having to write my own JavaScript to get annoying flashy text. In all seriousness, I'm not entirely sure why so many features in HTML are eschewed in favor of a slow JS mess. It doesn't feel like bolting on an entire relatively-slow programming language is going to make your code more organized than a relatively easy to use tag.
- alabastervlog 2y ago
  We could have datasource-backed tables and list elements. Built-in. Sorting for most purposes, "for free", and more with simple and light JS hooks for sort functions. Frames that actually work as useful UI elements. "Basic auth" screens that look and function well enough for lots of purposes. Something like "Apple Pay" or other external payment systems but built into the browser, replacing stupid amounts of time spent writing yet another payment form (and usually fucking it up in several ways) But no.
- lelandfe 2y ago
  > I'm so tired of having to write my own JavaScript to get annoying flashy text Fret no more: <style> .blink { animation: blink 1s steps(2, start) infinite; } @keyframes blink { 50% { visibility: hidden; } } </style> <p class="blink">Lorem ipsum</p> https://jsfiddle.net/xrkLt2nz/ https://jsfiddle.net/xrkLt2nz/
  - tombert 2y ago
    This is certainly better than nothing, but it should just be a tag! I shouldn't need this fancy new-fangled "CSS" fad to bail me out of the problems that W3C created by removing it in the first place!
    - lelandfe 2y ago
      Definitely. Much less the many several users who yet lack CSS support in their preferred browser.
      - tombert 2y ago
        The good news is that <marquee> still works in the latest Firefox. No need for any new-fangled animation libraries for me.
  - Sohcahtoa82 2y ago
    If front-end devs would stop reinventing things using JS that can be done in CSS, I'd be so happy.

jonathanhefner 2y ago

Agreed! There is a proposal for something like that in the WHATWG repo: https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/8538 https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/8538

jodydonetti 2y ago

What are you missing by using iframes (still standard, supported, working) + css for layouting that old school frames would give you?

graypegg 2y ago
The targeting for updates. Something like hotwire/turbo frames allows you to push a form's response to any turbo-frame. You can also push updates to multiple frames at once. They're matched by frame ID, much like target="", but in the case of iframes, the iframe is the only thing that can update the interior HTML. (other than just changing the URL from the parent application) iframes are also in a rather locked-down security model, even if they exist on the same domain. (Requires message passing, strict CORS rules, strict cookies rules etc)

evantbyrne 2y ago

I'm just happy we can find DOM elements by CSS selectors now. Full browser support for calc was almost too much excitement for me

earthboundkid 2y ago

The main problem with frames is that you need to use JS to get it to be responsively sized. If they would fix that, frames would be perfect. They actually do what people just think Web Components do. I.E. they are actually isolated from the styles of the host page and have an actual security boundary preventing malicious execution.

recursivedoubts 2y ago

Alex and (to a much lesser extent) I are trying to get a modernized version into the HTML spec: https://github.com/alexpetros/triptych https://github.com/alexpetros/triptych