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> 3. Democratic backsliding removes you rights in the Alliance, and, can proportionally lead to outright expulsion. Ok, so the alliance is a non starter then.

> 3. Democratic backsliding removes you rights in the Alliance, and, can proportionally lead to outright expulsion. Ok, so the alliance is a non starter then. The invalidation of the result of the referendum in France related to the EU constitution in 2005 by the signing of the Lisbon treaty a year or so later was a clear demonstration that the will of the people was not respected. The fact that the EU is pushing for the Chat Control law in order to access all your data on your phone, emails, pictures of your loved ones at all times without any reasonable causes/warrants is clearly an attempt to muzzle the population. Then there is the invalidation of the Romanian election not long ago which was done under the guise of protecting democracy. Then we can talk about the different parties in power in France /Germany and elsewhere who refuse to work with right wing parties that have been elected fair and square in parliament once again under the guise of protecting democracy and therefore are sending a clear signal that no matter who you vote for, the mainstream parties will refuse to listen/compromise and prefer to brand everyone who do not agree with them as Nazi extremists. I thought that democracy was that the will of the people was to be respected but it turns out that ignoring 20 to 30% of your population because you don't agree with them is just easier. To think that the EU has the gall to give lessons of democracy to authoritarian regimes....

DrNosferatu 2y ago
Your examples actually demonstrate democracy working, not failing: 1. France used constitutional processes for the Lisbon Treaty - or should we never adapt treaties as circumstances change? 2. Chat Control (wich I don’t personally agree) is being debated, modified, opposed - that's democracy in action. Try publicly opposing surveillance laws in China. 3. Refusing to coalition with anti-democratic parties IS protecting democracy. Just like we don't let parties run on platforms of abolishing elections. Democracy isn't just counting votes - it's sustaining a system where we can keep voting freely. That's why we have guardrails. Or would you prefer we just have one final vote to end all voting?
- rdm_blackhole 2y ago
  > France used constitutional processes for the Lisbon Treaty - or should we never adapt treaties as circumstances change? The answer was no, and then it was overridden without consultation. The people had spoken and were ignored. > Chat Control is being debated, modified, opposed - that's democracy in action. Try publicly opposing surveillance laws in China. The fact that Chat Control is on the table at all is the problem. You can't claim you want to protect privacy and democracy and demand access without cause to all your citizens data. The fact that "liberal" countries are willing to debate if we should end all privacy for every citizen is not the greatest definition of democracy. Should we also have a debate about bringing back slavery as well or maybe talk about installing cameras in every home in the EU? Where does this stop? > Refusing to coalition with anti-democratic parties IS protecting democracy. Just like we don't let parties run on platforms of abolishing elections. The fact that you refer to right wing parties as anti-democratic parties when people have voted for them fair and square is very telling in terms of your biases. Anything we do not agree with is anti-democratic , anything we support is pro democracy. How convenient! > Democracy isn't just counting votes - it's sustaining a system where we can keep voting freely. That's why we have guardrails. Exactly and ignoring the votes of your constituents because you don't like how people vote is exactly what's killing democracy and why a lot of people are turning away from the mainstream parties. Instead of listening and trying to find solutions which means finding compromises, it's much simpler to label everyone you disagree with as anti democratic and label the voters as extremists. > Or would you prefer we just have one final vote to end all voting? I am not sure where this suggestion comes from.
  - DrNosferatu 2y ago
    Your Lisbon Treaty argument ignores that France later approved it through constitutional processes. Should one referendum permanently bind a nation against any adaptation? That's not democracy - that's fossilization. On Chat Control - you're using classic slippery slope fallacy. Debating specific measures against CSAM isn't equivalent to "ending all privacy" or "bringing back slavery." This kind of hyperbole reveals bad faith argumentation. About right-wing coalitions: When parties openly advocate undermining democratic institutions, refusing to empower them IS protecting democracy. Not all electoral success deserves governing power - see 1933 German Elections for why. Your "ignoring votes" argument confuses: - Right to be voted for; - Right to automatic coalition inclusion; - Right to implement anti-democratic agenda; No one's votes are "ignored" - but winning some votes doesn't grant right to dismantle democratic safeguards. You're basically arguing that protecting democracy from its enemies is somehow undemocratic. That's both logically and historically wrong.

DrNosferatu 2y ago

Your examples actually demonstrate democracy working, not failing: 1. France used constitutional processes for the Lisbon Treaty - or should we never adapt treaties as circumstances change? 2. Chat Control (wich I don’t personally agree) is being debated, modified, opposed - that's democracy in action. Try publicly opposing surveillance laws in China. 3. Refusing to coalition with anti-democratic parties IS protecting democracy. Just like we don't let parties run on platforms of abolishing elections. Democracy isn't just counting votes - it's sustaining a system where we can keep voting freely. That's why we have guardrails. Or would you prefer we just have one final vote to end all voting?

rdm_blackhole 2y ago
> France used constitutional processes for the Lisbon Treaty - or should we never adapt treaties as circumstances change? The answer was no, and then it was overridden without consultation. The people had spoken and were ignored. > Chat Control is being debated, modified, opposed - that's democracy in action. Try publicly opposing surveillance laws in China. The fact that Chat Control is on the table at all is the problem. You can't claim you want to protect privacy and democracy and demand access without cause to all your citizens data. The fact that "liberal" countries are willing to debate if we should end all privacy for every citizen is not the greatest definition of democracy. Should we also have a debate about bringing back slavery as well or maybe talk about installing cameras in every home in the EU? Where does this stop? > Refusing to coalition with anti-democratic parties IS protecting democracy. Just like we don't let parties run on platforms of abolishing elections. The fact that you refer to right wing parties as anti-democratic parties when people have voted for them fair and square is very telling in terms of your biases. Anything we do not agree with is anti-democratic , anything we support is pro democracy. How convenient! > Democracy isn't just counting votes - it's sustaining a system where we can keep voting freely. That's why we have guardrails. Exactly and ignoring the votes of your constituents because you don't like how people vote is exactly what's killing democracy and why a lot of people are turning away from the mainstream parties. Instead of listening and trying to find solutions which means finding compromises, it's much simpler to label everyone you disagree with as anti democratic and label the voters as extremists. > Or would you prefer we just have one final vote to end all voting? I am not sure where this suggestion comes from.
- DrNosferatu 2y ago
  Your Lisbon Treaty argument ignores that France later approved it through constitutional processes. Should one referendum permanently bind a nation against any adaptation? That's not democracy - that's fossilization. On Chat Control - you're using classic slippery slope fallacy. Debating specific measures against CSAM isn't equivalent to "ending all privacy" or "bringing back slavery." This kind of hyperbole reveals bad faith argumentation. About right-wing coalitions: When parties openly advocate undermining democratic institutions, refusing to empower them IS protecting democracy. Not all electoral success deserves governing power - see 1933 German Elections for why. Your "ignoring votes" argument confuses: - Right to be voted for; - Right to automatic coalition inclusion; - Right to implement anti-democratic agenda; No one's votes are "ignored" - but winning some votes doesn't grant right to dismantle democratic safeguards. You're basically arguing that protecting democracy from its enemies is somehow undemocratic. That's both logically and historically wrong.