6 ms·

This is absolute nonsense. Using buzzwords can not replace reasoning. There are structural problems why germany failed to build a digital economy.

llm_trw 2y ago
Try opening a business in Germany to find out why.
- 7bit 2y ago
  I did, it was super easy.
  - llm_trw 2y ago
    How long did it take you from start to finish? In Australia, Canada and the US I can open a company in about 30 minutes from picking the name to opening a bank account I can get money into. In Germany the last time I tried it was about 7 weeks.
    - Techbotch 2y ago
      Well, yes – you can't typically open a business in 30 minutes here but the process is not exactly complex either. If you cant' figure out the administrative part of opening a company, maybe you shouldn't. It also keeps baffling me how that is of any significance. Are people afraid that their "paradigm shifting industry disrupting" idea will lose validity over the the next week? If so, maybe the idea was bollocks to begin with?
      - llm_trw 2y ago
        That you (and apparently the German bureaucracy) think people who can start a business and people who can tick administrative boxes are the same type of person explains German economic performance in the last 5 years.
        6510 2y ago
        It sounds strange but I believe businesses should bill the government for all work at their regular rates. If the assignment requires expertise that needs to be hired those rates should apply. Set some % fee for urgent work.
      - harperlee 2y ago
        The bureaucracy of opening the business is a proxy for the bureaucracy that the business will endure during this lifetime. Admittedly, opening in 30 minutes is the result of politicians gaming the KPI, no one needs to open a company in 30 minutes. But waiting for 7 weeks is also generally understood to be on the other side of the spectrum, and not really reasonable either. And that the "easy" part (as we know that it could be done as quickly as in 30 minutes) takes forever does not speak well of the UX of managing a business on that country, because e.g. closing a business, which is by nature more complicated, could end up being a hellish ordeal.
    - stop50 2y ago
      Depends on the region and the form of the company. e. K. has next to no protections but you can start at lunchtime to do commercial activities, a seperate bank account is not required, an GmbH takes quite long and needs a lot of money prepared for the company, but if it goes broke you are safe.
    - Propelloni 2y ago
      Depends what you want to achieve. If you just want to pick a name and open a bank account you can do that, too. You will run as a partnership with personal liability in that case. If you want to found a limited liability company (i.e. GmbH) you also can start with picking a name and opening a bank. Add "i.G." to your company's name (i.e. GmbH i.G.) and start doing business. Both approaches require you to register your business somewhere down the line, foremost for tax reasons. And yes, this can take quite some time, I had one occasion where we waited for 16 weeks after filing, but did business all the time. Note that some services are unavailable to you as long as your company is not formally registered, e.g. insurance. If you are in a real hurry and need a running limited liability company, just buy one. Better tax advisors usually have a few "empty" GmbH in their files they sell you for the price of capital stock plus some handling fees. This gives you all required IDs immediately and you just have to transfer the bank account and, if you want to, change the name. Depending on the availability of a notary, this can be done in a few hours but usually takes a few days. One additional advantage of buying a shell is that you get history, which makes a lot of things easier.
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      There are also the capital requirements. I think that for a GmbH (the standard limited liability company) the requirement is EUR25,000. Here in the UK, where you can also setup a limited company online in 30 minutes (though not the bank account), and there is no minimum capital requirement though there must obviously be capital so usually the minimum is taken as £1. Cost of incorporating and running a company as also very low, with little paperwork. IMHO, the British approach is more pragmatic: Why would you not make it as simple as possible to incorporate and run a company?
      - 7bit 2y ago
        Uhm, risk? If you dont have 25 to start a company, then don't do a GmbH and you're good.
        mytailorisrich 2y ago
        Why does the government care? People start companies for many reasons and capital amount is a matter for them. There are many small businesses that do not require 25k to start. Ultimately the state should make it as cheap and straightforward as possible, get out of the way basically, and let people get on with it. It's difficult to find a reason to do differently
    - 7bit 2y ago
      Tool me about 20 minutes
  - nicbou 2y ago
    It most certainly is not easy, especially compared to other countries.
    - 7bit 2y ago
      We live in a society
  - redrove 2y ago
    It takes months and you’re required to go to a notary at least twice and you have to put down 12500/25000EUR. This is absolute nonsense. In the UK you can open a limited company with 12GBP in a matter of days. Oh and it’s completely online, something which Germany will never have in the foreseeable future.
    - jefozabuss 2y ago
      Not to mention in Germany the quarterly/or even monthly tax accountant fees that could bleed into a couple thousand easily in the first year of operation. I'd say in Germany for starting a new GmbH you'd need at least 4-5k set on the side for lawyer/notary/accountant fees, this can be deducted from the 12.5k/25k bank account but it's a pain in the ... for the average startup.
    - thiago_fm 2y ago
      BS, there are companies that do the notary thing for you online.
jansan 2y ago
I realized a few weeks ago how broken IT in Germany is when I talked to a guy who turned out the CIO of a known German retail company. We did not talk about technology, exciting projects, ideas or similar, but about the complexity of the privacy act and "Scheinselbständigkeit" (false self-employment, which is a huge issue for start-ups and self-employed people in Germany). Out brains are so busy thinking about stuff that should just not have that much brains share, that we have not enough time to think about innovation and technology. I really wish they would drastically cut bureaucracy, but I just don't see it.
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  >Scheinselbständigkeit" (false self-employment, which is a huge issue for start-ups and self-employed people in Germany) Can you provide more details about this? How is this a problem and why does it affect startups?
  - Propelloni 2y ago
    No the OP, but Scheinselbstständigkeit is one of the scarecrows of freelancers and their clients in Germany. It is actually not very difficult, but in certain cases it is very limiting. If you can read German, here is a handy reference sheet, which is distributed by virtually all tax advisors [1]. [1] https://www.sup-kanzlei.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Scheinselbstaendigkeit.pdf https://www.sup-kanzlei.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Scheinselbs...
    - jamiedumont 2y ago
      And if you can't read German, it's very similar to the IR35 [0] rules that we have here in the UK. Effectively... "Don't work as a freelancer for a company if they are your only client. That's employment." [0]: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/understanding-off-payroll-working-ir35 https://www.gov.uk/guidance/understanding-off-payroll-workin...
      - __d 2y ago
        Same in Australia.

llm_trw 2y ago

Try opening a business in Germany to find out why.

7bit 2y ago
I did, it was super easy.
- llm_trw 2y ago
  How long did it take you from start to finish? In Australia, Canada and the US I can open a company in about 30 minutes from picking the name to opening a bank account I can get money into. In Germany the last time I tried it was about 7 weeks.
  - Techbotch 2y ago
    Well, yes – you can't typically open a business in 30 minutes here but the process is not exactly complex either. If you cant' figure out the administrative part of opening a company, maybe you shouldn't. It also keeps baffling me how that is of any significance. Are people afraid that their "paradigm shifting industry disrupting" idea will lose validity over the the next week? If so, maybe the idea was bollocks to begin with?
    - llm_trw 2y ago
      That you (and apparently the German bureaucracy) think people who can start a business and people who can tick administrative boxes are the same type of person explains German economic performance in the last 5 years.
      - 6510 2y ago
        It sounds strange but I believe businesses should bill the government for all work at their regular rates. If the assignment requires expertise that needs to be hired those rates should apply. Set some % fee for urgent work.
    - harperlee 2y ago
      The bureaucracy of opening the business is a proxy for the bureaucracy that the business will endure during this lifetime. Admittedly, opening in 30 minutes is the result of politicians gaming the KPI, no one needs to open a company in 30 minutes. But waiting for 7 weeks is also generally understood to be on the other side of the spectrum, and not really reasonable either. And that the "easy" part (as we know that it could be done as quickly as in 30 minutes) takes forever does not speak well of the UX of managing a business on that country, because e.g. closing a business, which is by nature more complicated, could end up being a hellish ordeal.
  - stop50 2y ago
    Depends on the region and the form of the company. e. K. has next to no protections but you can start at lunchtime to do commercial activities, a seperate bank account is not required, an GmbH takes quite long and needs a lot of money prepared for the company, but if it goes broke you are safe.
  - Propelloni 2y ago
    Depends what you want to achieve. If you just want to pick a name and open a bank account you can do that, too. You will run as a partnership with personal liability in that case. If you want to found a limited liability company (i.e. GmbH) you also can start with picking a name and opening a bank. Add "i.G." to your company's name (i.e. GmbH i.G.) and start doing business. Both approaches require you to register your business somewhere down the line, foremost for tax reasons. And yes, this can take quite some time, I had one occasion where we waited for 16 weeks after filing, but did business all the time. Note that some services are unavailable to you as long as your company is not formally registered, e.g. insurance. If you are in a real hurry and need a running limited liability company, just buy one. Better tax advisors usually have a few "empty" GmbH in their files they sell you for the price of capital stock plus some handling fees. This gives you all required IDs immediately and you just have to transfer the bank account and, if you want to, change the name. Depending on the availability of a notary, this can be done in a few hours but usually takes a few days. One additional advantage of buying a shell is that you get history, which makes a lot of things easier.
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    There are also the capital requirements. I think that for a GmbH (the standard limited liability company) the requirement is EUR25,000. Here in the UK, where you can also setup a limited company online in 30 minutes (though not the bank account), and there is no minimum capital requirement though there must obviously be capital so usually the minimum is taken as £1. Cost of incorporating and running a company as also very low, with little paperwork. IMHO, the British approach is more pragmatic: Why would you not make it as simple as possible to incorporate and run a company?
    - 7bit 2y ago
      Uhm, risk? If you dont have 25 to start a company, then don't do a GmbH and you're good.
      - mytailorisrich 2y ago
        Why does the government care? People start companies for many reasons and capital amount is a matter for them. There are many small businesses that do not require 25k to start. Ultimately the state should make it as cheap and straightforward as possible, get out of the way basically, and let people get on with it. It's difficult to find a reason to do differently
  - 7bit 2y ago
    Tool me about 20 minutes
- nicbou 2y ago
  It most certainly is not easy, especially compared to other countries.
  - 7bit 2y ago
    We live in a society
- redrove 2y ago
  It takes months and you’re required to go to a notary at least twice and you have to put down 12500/25000EUR. This is absolute nonsense. In the UK you can open a limited company with 12GBP in a matter of days. Oh and it’s completely online, something which Germany will never have in the foreseeable future.
  - jefozabuss 2y ago
    Not to mention in Germany the quarterly/or even monthly tax accountant fees that could bleed into a couple thousand easily in the first year of operation. I'd say in Germany for starting a new GmbH you'd need at least 4-5k set on the side for lawyer/notary/accountant fees, this can be deducted from the 12.5k/25k bank account but it's a pain in the ... for the average startup.
  - thiago_fm 2y ago
    BS, there are companies that do the notary thing for you online.

jansan 2y ago

I realized a few weeks ago how broken IT in Germany is when I talked to a guy who turned out the CIO of a known German retail company. We did not talk about technology, exciting projects, ideas or similar, but about the complexity of the privacy act and "Scheinselbständigkeit" (false self-employment, which is a huge issue for start-ups and self-employed people in Germany). Out brains are so busy thinking about stuff that should just not have that much brains share, that we have not enough time to think about innovation and technology. I really wish they would drastically cut bureaucracy, but I just don't see it.

FirmwareBurner 2y ago
>Scheinselbständigkeit" (false self-employment, which is a huge issue for start-ups and self-employed people in Germany) Can you provide more details about this? How is this a problem and why does it affect startups?
- Propelloni 2y ago
  No the OP, but Scheinselbstständigkeit is one of the scarecrows of freelancers and their clients in Germany. It is actually not very difficult, but in certain cases it is very limiting. If you can read German, here is a handy reference sheet, which is distributed by virtually all tax advisors [1]. [1] https://www.sup-kanzlei.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Scheinselbstaendigkeit.pdf https://www.sup-kanzlei.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Scheinselbs...
  - jamiedumont 2y ago
    And if you can't read German, it's very similar to the IR35 [0] rules that we have here in the UK. Effectively... "Don't work as a freelancer for a company if they are your only client. That's employment." [0]: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/understanding-off-payroll-working-ir35 https://www.gov.uk/guidance/understanding-off-payroll-workin...
    - __d 2y ago
      Same in Australia.