5 ms·

There are no good governments.

dijit 2y ago
I think thats the right mindset to have in cases where power increases. I’m really exhausted with this sovereign citizen crap, but when the government is trying to accrue more powers its worthwhile asking what else can be done with it. For a prescient example: my mother welcomed policies that made protesting more-or-less illegal. “Just Stop Oil” had been doing a lot of nuisance things and she felt it justified. As did the right wing. Now, when the far-right started marching[0] she was horrified to learn the extent of the new powers and said it was orwellian. I use her as an example because I think HN leans left, but it will be the right wing folks who dislike government most. Obviously as a left winger myself- when the right wing government was installing anti-protest measures I was horrified, and was much more keen to point out they it could be used against people like my mum. The government aren’t your friends, they are either changable- meaning all rules have to be solid enough to be used fairly even if the ruling party changes a lot, or: you’re living in something other than democracy, which is largely considered bad. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_Kingdom_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_Kingdom_riots
- wvh 2y ago
  People are massively choosing sides, colours, flags, identities. It's not about left or right. It's about personal opinions and identity, and one side having the power to violently disagree with you, to the point of no recourse. It does not matter if it's a left or right boot that stomps you in the face. I see the same thing in my parents, where actions become scary when "the other side" does them. It's a myopic arms race to the bottom of rational understanding.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
  The trouble, I think, isn't that the left is worried about government power. It's that they're infatuated with its potential to dole out all sorts of entitlements and welfare. It's not so much that you won't want it to have the ability to limit protests, it's just that you want to make sure your guys are in charge first and that they're limiting protests you dislike. >I’m really exhausted with this sovereign citizen crap, I couldn't ask for a better example of my assertion above. For the moment, ignore their lunatic legal theories (rarely can one win cases in court by insulting judges and dismissing their powers to adjudicate). Their sentiment, at least, should be something you're sympathetic for. These aren't people who are disposing of liquid mercury in the local river or selling children to the coal mine as slaves. They're goofballs who want to drive down the road with their own homemade license plate. Rarely, if ever, do you read a story where they're doing something dangerous or harmful. Instead, it's always about them flaunting an attitude that the government shouldn't have power over them in the mundane activities of daily life. Despite that, they're among the most-hated of outgroups among the left. Why? Because when the fringe left is in charge, someday in the near future, it will be just as embarrassing to them that the sovereign citizens give them no respect as it is currently to the not-leftist-enoughs in charge now.
  - dijit 2y ago
    This is certainly an opinion. Dumping mercury in a local river is indeed bad, but driving without a license[0] increases the likelihood that you kill someone. It's not either/or; you're choosing to break rules- many of which are written in blood. Being "quirky" does not give you indemnity to potentially destroy a family. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY9HzjdLbo8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY9HzjdLbo8
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
      >but driving without a license[0] increases the likelihood that you kill someone. You're somewhat prone to magical thinking. I can't wait for your misinterpreted statistics that, in your head, prove you correct.
      - dijit 2y ago
        HackerNews frowns on trolling, and you're not very good at it anyway.
        NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
        I'm not trolling. You frown on unliked opinions.
  - pastage 2y ago
    Do not make villains out of a group just because some of them dislike you. Not wanting to participate in society is not a left right question.
ben_w 2y ago
Prisoner's dilemma is a broader category than the name suggests. A good government is one that changes the payout matrix in our daily equivalents so people choose cooperation over defection. (But what prevents the government from defecting?)
sph 2y ago
Democratic governments start good, then, operate through the only hammer they have: legislation. After a few decades, there are more things one cannot do than can do without lawyers, committees and councils breathing down your neck. So the people get restless, and want to tear it all down, in the hope that we can start again fresh. But I agree with the gist of it. Right now there are no democratic governments that are good for people. We live in barely disguised oligarchy run by thieves, imbeciles and sociopaths. As an immigrant to Britain, I am appalled to see how fast inept legislators keep making things worse every time they try to fix them, and how the average voter keeps voting for the parties with the silliest and most destructive of ideas. I am so glad to be out of this place in the next few months. Looking forward to Reform to completely destroy the little that's left; hopefully a better place will rise out of the ashes. See you in 30 years, Britain.
- thrance 2y ago
  That's a very wrong reading of history. Our democracies didn't "start good", slavery was legal, workers had very few rights and strikes were brutally broken by a police whose only job was to protect the interests of the aristocracy turned bourgeoisie. The weight of a country's law book is no indication of the freedom of its citizen. Our period of instability has been brought upon by a discontent stemming from ever increasing economic inequalities. This isn't the first time it happens: look at the 30s. Europe turned to fascism and was demolished by pointless wars, America turned to social democracy with FDR and the new deal, and became the first hyperpower.
  - sph 2y ago
    Fair enough, I agree with your argument. I am firmly in the camp that democracies are tolerable because they're the least worst of other alternatives. But they're very far away from any notion of good. They're pretty terrible and exploitable. They don't provide any practical countermeasure against greed, lies and general stupidity, which are very real human behaviours.
    - thrance 2y ago
speed_spread 2y ago
There are effective ways for large populations to organize and fairly delegate power amongst themselves with the goal of efficient resource management and maximizing collective benefits. But it first requires that said population understands the working of said organization and have an objective idea of the trade-offs at play.
czzr 2y ago
There are better and worse governments. Blanket statements like yours only serve to empower the worse governments.
- raxxorraxor 2y ago
  I doubt this was the essential point. Even if it is currently well intended and behaves perfectly, the "goodness" of government is irrelevant. It is that you cannot rely on government to be good. So you need checks and balances and also privacy to shield you from government overreach.
Melab 2y ago
This is a performative declaration. You don't really believe that.

I think thats the right mindset to have in cases where power increases. I’m really exhausted with this sovereign citizen crap, but when the government is trying to accrue more powers its worthwhile asking what else can be done with it. For a prescient example: my mother welcomed policies that made protesting more-or-less illegal. “Just Stop Oil” had been doing a lot of nuisance things and she felt it justified. As did the right wing. Now, when the far-right started marching[0] she was horrified to learn the extent of the new powers and said it was orwellian. I use her as an example because I think HN leans left, but it will be the right wing folks who dislike government most. Obviously as a left winger myself- when the right wing government was installing anti-protest measures I was horrified, and was much more keen to point out they it could be used against people like my mum. The government aren’t your friends, they are either changable- meaning all rules have to be solid enough to be used fairly even if the ruling party changes a lot, or: you’re living in something other than democracy, which is largely considered bad. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_Kingdom_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_Kingdom_riots

wvh 2y ago
People are massively choosing sides, colours, flags, identities. It's not about left or right. It's about personal opinions and identity, and one side having the power to violently disagree with you, to the point of no recourse. It does not matter if it's a left or right boot that stomps you in the face. I see the same thing in my parents, where actions become scary when "the other side" does them. It's a myopic arms race to the bottom of rational understanding.
NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
The trouble, I think, isn't that the left is worried about government power. It's that they're infatuated with its potential to dole out all sorts of entitlements and welfare. It's not so much that you won't want it to have the ability to limit protests, it's just that you want to make sure your guys are in charge first and that they're limiting protests you dislike. >I’m really exhausted with this sovereign citizen crap, I couldn't ask for a better example of my assertion above. For the moment, ignore their lunatic legal theories (rarely can one win cases in court by insulting judges and dismissing their powers to adjudicate). Their sentiment, at least, should be something you're sympathetic for. These aren't people who are disposing of liquid mercury in the local river or selling children to the coal mine as slaves. They're goofballs who want to drive down the road with their own homemade license plate. Rarely, if ever, do you read a story where they're doing something dangerous or harmful. Instead, it's always about them flaunting an attitude that the government shouldn't have power over them in the mundane activities of daily life. Despite that, they're among the most-hated of outgroups among the left. Why? Because when the fringe left is in charge, someday in the near future, it will be just as embarrassing to them that the sovereign citizens give them no respect as it is currently to the not-leftist-enoughs in charge now.
- dijit 2y ago
  This is certainly an opinion. Dumping mercury in a local river is indeed bad, but driving without a license[0] increases the likelihood that you kill someone. It's not either/or; you're choosing to break rules- many of which are written in blood. Being "quirky" does not give you indemnity to potentially destroy a family. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY9HzjdLbo8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY9HzjdLbo8
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
    >but driving without a license[0] increases the likelihood that you kill someone. You're somewhat prone to magical thinking. I can't wait for your misinterpreted statistics that, in your head, prove you correct.
    - dijit 2y ago
      HackerNews frowns on trolling, and you're not very good at it anyway.
      - NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
        I'm not trolling. You frown on unliked opinions.
- pastage 2y ago
  Do not make villains out of a group just because some of them dislike you. Not wanting to participate in society is not a left right question.

ben_w 2y ago

Prisoner's dilemma is a broader category than the name suggests. A good government is one that changes the payout matrix in our daily equivalents so people choose cooperation over defection. (But what prevents the government from defecting?)

sph 2y ago

Democratic governments start good, then, operate through the only hammer they have: legislation. After a few decades, there are more things one cannot do than can do without lawyers, committees and councils breathing down your neck. So the people get restless, and want to tear it all down, in the hope that we can start again fresh. But I agree with the gist of it. Right now there are no democratic governments that are good for people. We live in barely disguised oligarchy run by thieves, imbeciles and sociopaths. As an immigrant to Britain, I am appalled to see how fast inept legislators keep making things worse every time they try to fix them, and how the average voter keeps voting for the parties with the silliest and most destructive of ideas. I am so glad to be out of this place in the next few months. Looking forward to Reform to completely destroy the little that's left; hopefully a better place will rise out of the ashes. See you in 30 years, Britain.

thrance 2y ago
That's a very wrong reading of history. Our democracies didn't "start good", slavery was legal, workers had very few rights and strikes were brutally broken by a police whose only job was to protect the interests of the aristocracy turned bourgeoisie. The weight of a country's law book is no indication of the freedom of its citizen. Our period of instability has been brought upon by a discontent stemming from ever increasing economic inequalities. This isn't the first time it happens: look at the 30s. Europe turned to fascism and was demolished by pointless wars, America turned to social democracy with FDR and the new deal, and became the first hyperpower.
- sph 2y ago
  Fair enough, I agree with your argument. I am firmly in the camp that democracies are tolerable because they're the least worst of other alternatives. But they're very far away from any notion of good. They're pretty terrible and exploitable. They don't provide any practical countermeasure against greed, lies and general stupidity, which are very real human behaviours.
  - thrance 2y ago

speed_spread 2y ago

There are effective ways for large populations to organize and fairly delegate power amongst themselves with the goal of efficient resource management and maximizing collective benefits. But it first requires that said population understands the working of said organization and have an objective idea of the trade-offs at play.

czzr 2y ago

There are better and worse governments. Blanket statements like yours only serve to empower the worse governments.

raxxorraxor 2y ago
I doubt this was the essential point. Even if it is currently well intended and behaves perfectly, the "goodness" of government is irrelevant. It is that you cannot rely on government to be good. So you need checks and balances and also privacy to shield you from government overreach.

Melab 2y ago

This is a performative declaration. You don't really believe that.