4 ms·

> It is called PR_SET_DEATHSIG, and we configure it when spawning tasks using the prctl syscall like this PDEATHSIG was to my knowledge (85% confidence) create

> It is called PR_SET_DEATHSIG, and we configure it when spawning tasks using the prctl syscall like this PDEATHSIG was to my knowledge (85% confidence) created for the original Linux userspace pthreads implementation (LinuxThreads¹, before NPTL) that was created back when it was implemented via kernel processes (the kernel had no concept of threads yet). This is AFAIK also why it behaves oddly in regards to later-added kernel threads. I have a flag for "don't use this, it's highly fragile" in my head but don't remember where that's from. If the receiving side can be controlled, there's always the option of opening a pipe; if the other end dies that's always detectable. Doesn't work with arbitrary processes though (random other code won't care if some fd ≥3 is suddenly closed…) ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LinuxThreads https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LinuxThreads

fulafel 2y ago
There's been no fundamental change in the kernel level representation of pthreads, they are still clone()d processes with just some sharing flags set differently that eg affect how PIDs work.
- fc417fc802 2y ago
  More precisely, distinguishing a process and a thread is a pointless overspecification. Unfortunately POSIX mandates it and glibc accepts it. If you want to register per-thread signal handlers you're forced to step outside the bounds of glibc and pthreads which I think is quite unfortunate.
  - skissane 2y ago
    Digressing a little, but Glibc’s pthreads implementation is painful, because they don’t provide any public API to map a pthread_t to the kernel TID, except for the horrendously awful thread_db. Of course, for the current thread, you can just call gettid() - but if you want to map pthread_t to TID for another thread, the thread_db abomination is the only supported way. Bionic supplies a nice simple pthread_gettid_np() for this, macOS has that too (albeit sadly with an incompatible prototype). Now, pthread_t is actually a pointer to an undocumented structure, and the TID is stored at a certain offset in it… so it is easy to pull the TID from there. Until some day the glibc developers change the layout of the structure and suddenly that code breaks. There’s an entry in glibc’s bug tracker for this - https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=27880 https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=27880 - but it doesn’t look like it will be implemented any time soon
    - fc417fc802 2y ago
      Huh I never really thought about that before. Seems like a glaring oversight but then again do any POSIX APIs even involve threads? Which itself illustrates the absurdity because what modern OS doesn't support multiple scheduling entities per virtual address space? Or should I have said per thread group? What was a process supposed to be again? (And what was the point of the thing?) Digressing the conversation further, I notice in the docs that CLONE_SIGHAND requires CLONE_VM and CLONE_THREAD requires CLONE_SIGHAND. Any idea if there's a technical reason for that or is it just POSIX constraints needlessly infecting the kernel? It's particularly confusing that the TID is the real identifier but the documentation generally refers to scheduling entities as processes. So you use a TID to refer to a process and a PID to refer to a thread group ... right. Very straightforward.
      - skissane 2y ago
        > do any POSIX APIs even involve threads? pthreads (POSIX threads) is itself a POSIX API I guess one reason why it doesn’t have any TID concept, is although Linux nowadays uses 1:1 threading (one kernel thread per user-space thread), historically many Unix thread libraries were designed to use 1:N threading (a single kernel thread runs multiple user space threads) or M:N threading (a pool of kernel threads runs a pool of user space threads where the two pools differ in size). Plus, while Linux went with the model that processes and threads are basically two slightly different variants of the same thing, in other POSIX implementations they are completely distinct object types. Since pthreads are designed to support such a wide variety of implementation strategies, they can’t assume threads have any kernel-maintained unique ID, because in some of those implementation strategies there might not be one. > I notice in the docs that CLONE_SIGHAND requires CLONE_VM I think this is necessary? If it wasn’t, the child might load new code (dlopen or JIT) and then install a signal handler pointing to it. With CLONE_SIGHAND, it shares signal handler with parent. But without CLONE_VM, the memory mapping containing the new code wouldn’t exist in the parent, meaning instant segfault as soon as the signal is delivered > and CLONE_THREAD requires CLONE_SIGHAND. Any idea if there's a technical reason for that or is it just POSIX constraints needlessly infecting the kernel? Well, this one is more POSIX (and historical Unix before it). Signals are primarily a process-level construct in Unix/POSIX, not thread-level – since back when signals were invented, threads hadn’t been invented yet (on Unix–PL/I running under OS/360 MVT already had multithreading, which it called 'multitasking', in 1968, Unix development didn't start until 1969). Although we’ve now got per-thread signal masks and thread-directed signals, the actual handlers are still per-process Also, I think another reason for disallowing certain combination of clone() flags: obscure combinations can expose bugs, possibly even security vulnerabilities; if there is no great demand for a specific combination, the kernel devs may conclude it is safest to disallow it
  - surajrmal 2y ago
    Linux isn't the only kernel in the world. Posix needs to be kernel agnostic. Also need common abstractions to have unique names.
- eqvinox 2y ago
  > they are still clone()d processes with just some sharing flags set differently that eg affect how PIDs work. I'd say this is depending on perspective both true and false¹, but also unhelpful to work with here. Instead, I would suggest this perspective: the kernel has neither processes nor threads; it has tasks, which are entities the scheduler can run. They're exposed to userland as processes and threads. Excluding kernel tasks/threads, which can have arbitrary rules but are also user-visible, a task is exposed as a thread, and a set of threads is exposed as a process. Both operations working with threads as well as operations working with processes exist. We're looking at an API in this case that works with threads on one side (parent, the signal is triggered by thread exit) and processes on the other (child, the signal is process-targeted). How these were created is irrelevant, what matters is the abstractions they refer to. ¹ you could equally well argue that processes do not exist in the kernel, they're just threads with sharing flags set differently.
pengaru 2y ago
Can you actually substantiate your 85% confident claim? Because it doesn't ring the slightest bell here, and I don't see any mention of "deathsig" in glibc's LinuxThreads fork of Xavier's found @ https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/libc/glibc-linuxthreads-2.5.tar.bz2 https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/libc/glibc-linuxthreads-2.5.tar.bz2 I used LinuxThreads back in the 90s, and its main problem ISTR was hijacking SIGUSR[12]. My interests back then involved demo programming using SVGAlib, and mixing LinuxThreads with SVGAlib was a mess due to both wanting to use SIGUSR1. Endless corrupt consoles...
- eqvinox 2y ago
  > Can you actually substantiate your 85% confident claim? I unfortunately can't, it was apparently added in 2.1.57, which would be somewhere around 1998~1999. I started working with Linux around 2001~2002, and this association of PDEATHSIG with LinuxThreads has at some point embedded itself into my brain… I can't reconstruct when or why. And I can't seem to find the specific patch that added PDEATHSIG, and can't find a versioned history of LinuxThreads either… Probably best to treat my comment as "grandpa tells weird stories that may or may not be true" :'( [… I'm not even that old T_T] Best reference I can find is in MAINTAINERS: N: Richard E. Gooch E: rgooch@atnf.csiro.au D: parent process death signal to children D: prctl() syscall S: CSIRO Australia Telescope National Facility S: P.O. Box 76, Epping S: N.S.W., 2121 S: Australia [ed.] wait! — https://man7.org/conf/piter2019/once_upon_an_API-Linux-Piter-2019-Kerrisk.pdf https://man7.org/conf/piter2019/once_upon_an_API-Linux-Piter... "(Of course, there was no explanation of why the feature was needed)" Note Richard was at minimum involved in discussions about LinuxThreads: https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/9806.2/1227.html https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/9806.2/1227.html — and it does mention prctl and "dying main thread"…
  - pengaru 2y ago
    Thanks for digging this up, that kerrisk pdf is great.

fulafel 2y ago

There's been no fundamental change in the kernel level representation of pthreads, they are still clone()d processes with just some sharing flags set differently that eg affect how PIDs work.

fc417fc802 2y ago
More precisely, distinguishing a process and a thread is a pointless overspecification. Unfortunately POSIX mandates it and glibc accepts it. If you want to register per-thread signal handlers you're forced to step outside the bounds of glibc and pthreads which I think is quite unfortunate.
- skissane 2y ago
  Digressing a little, but Glibc’s pthreads implementation is painful, because they don’t provide any public API to map a pthread_t to the kernel TID, except for the horrendously awful thread_db. Of course, for the current thread, you can just call gettid() - but if you want to map pthread_t to TID for another thread, the thread_db abomination is the only supported way. Bionic supplies a nice simple pthread_gettid_np() for this, macOS has that too (albeit sadly with an incompatible prototype). Now, pthread_t is actually a pointer to an undocumented structure, and the TID is stored at a certain offset in it… so it is easy to pull the TID from there. Until some day the glibc developers change the layout of the structure and suddenly that code breaks. There’s an entry in glibc’s bug tracker for this - https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=27880 https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=27880 - but it doesn’t look like it will be implemented any time soon
  - fc417fc802 2y ago
    Huh I never really thought about that before. Seems like a glaring oversight but then again do any POSIX APIs even involve threads? Which itself illustrates the absurdity because what modern OS doesn't support multiple scheduling entities per virtual address space? Or should I have said per thread group? What was a process supposed to be again? (And what was the point of the thing?) Digressing the conversation further, I notice in the docs that CLONE_SIGHAND requires CLONE_VM and CLONE_THREAD requires CLONE_SIGHAND. Any idea if there's a technical reason for that or is it just POSIX constraints needlessly infecting the kernel? It's particularly confusing that the TID is the real identifier but the documentation generally refers to scheduling entities as processes. So you use a TID to refer to a process and a PID to refer to a thread group ... right. Very straightforward.
    - skissane 2y ago
      > do any POSIX APIs even involve threads? pthreads (POSIX threads) is itself a POSIX API I guess one reason why it doesn’t have any TID concept, is although Linux nowadays uses 1:1 threading (one kernel thread per user-space thread), historically many Unix thread libraries were designed to use 1:N threading (a single kernel thread runs multiple user space threads) or M:N threading (a pool of kernel threads runs a pool of user space threads where the two pools differ in size). Plus, while Linux went with the model that processes and threads are basically two slightly different variants of the same thing, in other POSIX implementations they are completely distinct object types. Since pthreads are designed to support such a wide variety of implementation strategies, they can’t assume threads have any kernel-maintained unique ID, because in some of those implementation strategies there might not be one. > I notice in the docs that CLONE_SIGHAND requires CLONE_VM I think this is necessary? If it wasn’t, the child might load new code (dlopen or JIT) and then install a signal handler pointing to it. With CLONE_SIGHAND, it shares signal handler with parent. But without CLONE_VM, the memory mapping containing the new code wouldn’t exist in the parent, meaning instant segfault as soon as the signal is delivered > and CLONE_THREAD requires CLONE_SIGHAND. Any idea if there's a technical reason for that or is it just POSIX constraints needlessly infecting the kernel? Well, this one is more POSIX (and historical Unix before it). Signals are primarily a process-level construct in Unix/POSIX, not thread-level – since back when signals were invented, threads hadn’t been invented yet (on Unix–PL/I running under OS/360 MVT already had multithreading, which it called 'multitasking', in 1968, Unix development didn't start until 1969). Although we’ve now got per-thread signal masks and thread-directed signals, the actual handlers are still per-process Also, I think another reason for disallowing certain combination of clone() flags: obscure combinations can expose bugs, possibly even security vulnerabilities; if there is no great demand for a specific combination, the kernel devs may conclude it is safest to disallow it
- surajrmal 2y ago
  Linux isn't the only kernel in the world. Posix needs to be kernel agnostic. Also need common abstractions to have unique names.
eqvinox 2y ago
> they are still clone()d processes with just some sharing flags set differently that eg affect how PIDs work. I'd say this is depending on perspective both true and false¹, but also unhelpful to work with here. Instead, I would suggest this perspective: the kernel has neither processes nor threads; it has tasks, which are entities the scheduler can run. They're exposed to userland as processes and threads. Excluding kernel tasks/threads, which can have arbitrary rules but are also user-visible, a task is exposed as a thread, and a set of threads is exposed as a process. Both operations working with threads as well as operations working with processes exist. We're looking at an API in this case that works with threads on one side (parent, the signal is triggered by thread exit) and processes on the other (child, the signal is process-targeted). How these were created is irrelevant, what matters is the abstractions they refer to. ¹ you could equally well argue that processes do not exist in the kernel, they're just threads with sharing flags set differently.

pengaru 2y ago

Can you actually substantiate your 85% confident claim? Because it doesn't ring the slightest bell here, and I don't see any mention of "deathsig" in glibc's LinuxThreads fork of Xavier's found @ https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/libc/glibc-linuxthreads-2.5.tar.bz2 https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/libc/glibc-linuxthreads-2.5.tar.bz2 I used LinuxThreads back in the 90s, and its main problem ISTR was hijacking SIGUSR[12]. My interests back then involved demo programming using SVGAlib, and mixing LinuxThreads with SVGAlib was a mess due to both wanting to use SIGUSR1. Endless corrupt consoles...

eqvinox 2y ago
> Can you actually substantiate your 85% confident claim? I unfortunately can't, it was apparently added in 2.1.57, which would be somewhere around 1998~1999. I started working with Linux around 2001~2002, and this association of PDEATHSIG with LinuxThreads has at some point embedded itself into my brain… I can't reconstruct when or why. And I can't seem to find the specific patch that added PDEATHSIG, and can't find a versioned history of LinuxThreads either… Probably best to treat my comment as "grandpa tells weird stories that may or may not be true" :'( [… I'm not even that old T_T] Best reference I can find is in MAINTAINERS: N: Richard E. Gooch E: rgooch@atnf.csiro.au D: parent process death signal to children D: prctl() syscall S: CSIRO Australia Telescope National Facility S: P.O. Box 76, Epping S: N.S.W., 2121 S: Australia [ed.] wait! — https://man7.org/conf/piter2019/once_upon_an_API-Linux-Piter-2019-Kerrisk.pdf https://man7.org/conf/piter2019/once_upon_an_API-Linux-Piter... "(Of course, there was no explanation of why the feature was needed)" Note Richard was at minimum involved in discussions about LinuxThreads: https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/9806.2/1227.html https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/9806.2/1227.html — and it does mention prctl and "dying main thread"…
- pengaru 2y ago
  Thanks for digging this up, that kerrisk pdf is great.