6 ms·

This is such a tough issue to deal with, definitely in the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" category in my book. There's just not good, clean answer. Se

This is such a tough issue to deal with, definitely in the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" category in my book. There's just not good, clean answer. Sex is almost universally binary (there are exceptions, though very rare). Gender is by no means binary though, its a totally different concept that just happens to correlate well enough to sex for most people. I'd like this to be a scenario where you just don't have prisons if you can't decide how to effectively group people and keep them safe. Most people wouldn't go for that though, we very much like punishing people for their mistakes and making them trade months or years of their life as penance.

bitshiftfaced 2y ago
Do you believe that because of the circumstances you mentioned, people shouldn't necessarily go to prison even if they murder someone?
- meristohm 2y ago
  In many cultures, exile or retribution was the answer to murder, and to prevent things getting so heated, strong and secure family and community bonds go a long way. American prisons (I'm American, and also don't know much about non-US prisons) continue to be a great way to take advantage of the 13th Amendment to the Constitution and thus continue to benefit from slave labor. My military uniform was made by enslaved people, for example. I'm with Angela Davis and numerous other abolitionists on this topic.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    What would exile look like? where would they be sent? It is hard to imagine another country taking them, and any no-mans land the US establishes would likely be at least as hellish as the prison system. Do we just keep dumping them on some island to Battle Royale/ Hunger games? is that more humane?
- _heimdall 2y ago
  If we can't safely imprison people, absolutely. Do you believe that someone who committed murder deserves to be held against their will in an unsafe environment? My point isn't that prisons must be completely safe and nothing could ever go wrong. They should, though, be on par with the relative safety of the world outside prison walls.
  - pixxel 2y ago
    [dead]
  - beretguy 2y ago
    > Do you believe that someone who committed murder deserves to be held against their will in an unsafe environment? Absolutely. Give them what they want. Give them a taste of their own medicine. If they don't want to be civilized - don't give them civility.
  - bitshiftfaced 2y ago
    The hazard rate of a violent act is much higher among violent offenders, and it would be inhumane to put everyone in solitary confinement, even if you could afford it. Therefore, a prison containing violent offenders will never be as safe as the overall outside population.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
Let’s back up: what do we need to do to keep these (and other) inmates safe? They can call themselves a man, woman or air fryer, it’s almost irrelevant. What’s essential (and being lost in the hair-picking exercise of trying to solve for a universal theory of gender and sex) is that they not be shanked while Twitter has an incel side panel on sex ed. We divide inmates by more than just sex. We put sex offenders, literal rapists and pedophiles, in separate accommodation for their safety. Why can’t we do the same for trans folk? Even if you believe they’re deranged, what right does anyone have to extend their disgust to damnation? The situation is complicated. But not tough.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  Im curious how the status quo compares with respect to the safety angle. Is the primary safety concern sexual violence, or hate crimes? I imagine pregnancy would also be a concern. If the main concern is sexual assault, can imagine there are risks either way, status quo and ex-post. If the concern is hate crimes, I could imagine trans people also suffering under either case. Prison is a high risk place.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    If we can’t derisk prison, it’s a human rights violation to incarcerate in them. It’s high risk because of choices.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      What is the alternative? Corporeal punishment only? No law enforcement? Solitary confinement would also be a rights violation.
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        Funding corrections systems at an appropriate level where violence is an exception, not the norm. If you can’t afford to do it, you can’t afford to incarcerate. American prisons are about making humans suffer though (vs rehabilitation) as inexpensively as possible, so I don’t see this changing in the near future.
smallerize 2y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_rights_in_the_United_States#V-coding https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_rights_in_the_Un... 58% of trans women placed in men's prisons report being violently sexually assaulted. One answer is a lot more damned than the other.
- _heimdall 2y ago
  That falls squarely in the "if we can't imprison citizens safely, maybe we shouldn't imprison anyone" category for me.
  - yawpitch 2y ago
    … ok, you might be getting a little closer to waking up here. If prisons worked (as anything but a source of cheap labor) all Americans would be safe.
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      I don't need to wake up here, and your condescending tone wouldn't help convince me otherwise.
      - yawpitch 2y ago
        [flagged]
        _heimdall 2y ago
        I didn't mean tone as in the intonation of your words, I meant the specific words you chose and what they imply. You made it clear that you know where I currently stand on the topic, where I have stood on it in the past, what I do or don't know, and that you're way of viewing the topic is right and I just need to "see the light" as it were. All of that was very clear in your written words, verbal intonation was needed to know what you meant and how you viewed me in that exchange.

bitshiftfaced 2y ago

Do you believe that because of the circumstances you mentioned, people shouldn't necessarily go to prison even if they murder someone?

meristohm 2y ago
In many cultures, exile or retribution was the answer to murder, and to prevent things getting so heated, strong and secure family and community bonds go a long way. American prisons (I'm American, and also don't know much about non-US prisons) continue to be a great way to take advantage of the 13th Amendment to the Constitution and thus continue to benefit from slave labor. My military uniform was made by enslaved people, for example. I'm with Angela Davis and numerous other abolitionists on this topic.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  What would exile look like? where would they be sent? It is hard to imagine another country taking them, and any no-mans land the US establishes would likely be at least as hellish as the prison system. Do we just keep dumping them on some island to Battle Royale/ Hunger games? is that more humane?
_heimdall 2y ago
If we can't safely imprison people, absolutely. Do you believe that someone who committed murder deserves to be held against their will in an unsafe environment? My point isn't that prisons must be completely safe and nothing could ever go wrong. They should, though, be on par with the relative safety of the world outside prison walls.
- pixxel 2y ago
  [dead]
- beretguy 2y ago
  > Do you believe that someone who committed murder deserves to be held against their will in an unsafe environment? Absolutely. Give them what they want. Give them a taste of their own medicine. If they don't want to be civilized - don't give them civility.
- bitshiftfaced 2y ago
  The hazard rate of a violent act is much higher among violent offenders, and it would be inhumane to put everyone in solitary confinement, even if you could afford it. Therefore, a prison containing violent offenders will never be as safe as the overall outside population.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

Let’s back up: what do we need to do to keep these (and other) inmates safe? They can call themselves a man, woman or air fryer, it’s almost irrelevant. What’s essential (and being lost in the hair-picking exercise of trying to solve for a universal theory of gender and sex) is that they not be shanked while Twitter has an incel side panel on sex ed. We divide inmates by more than just sex. We put sex offenders, literal rapists and pedophiles, in separate accommodation for their safety. Why can’t we do the same for trans folk? Even if you believe they’re deranged, what right does anyone have to extend their disgust to damnation? The situation is complicated. But not tough.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
Im curious how the status quo compares with respect to the safety angle. Is the primary safety concern sexual violence, or hate crimes? I imagine pregnancy would also be a concern. If the main concern is sexual assault, can imagine there are risks either way, status quo and ex-post. If the concern is hate crimes, I could imagine trans people also suffering under either case. Prison is a high risk place.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  If we can’t derisk prison, it’s a human rights violation to incarcerate in them. It’s high risk because of choices.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    What is the alternative? Corporeal punishment only? No law enforcement? Solitary confinement would also be a rights violation.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      Funding corrections systems at an appropriate level where violence is an exception, not the norm. If you can’t afford to do it, you can’t afford to incarcerate. American prisons are about making humans suffer though (vs rehabilitation) as inexpensively as possible, so I don’t see this changing in the near future.

smallerize 2y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_rights_in_the_United_States#V-coding https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_rights_in_the_Un... 58% of trans women placed in men's prisons report being violently sexually assaulted. One answer is a lot more damned than the other.

_heimdall 2y ago
That falls squarely in the "if we can't imprison citizens safely, maybe we shouldn't imprison anyone" category for me.
- yawpitch 2y ago
  … ok, you might be getting a little closer to waking up here. If prisons worked (as anything but a source of cheap labor) all Americans would be safe.
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    I don't need to wake up here, and your condescending tone wouldn't help convince me otherwise.
    - yawpitch 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - _heimdall 2y ago
        I didn't mean tone as in the intonation of your words, I meant the specific words you chose and what they imply. You made it clear that you know where I currently stand on the topic, where I have stood on it in the past, what I do or don't know, and that you're way of viewing the topic is right and I just need to "see the light" as it were. All of that was very clear in your written words, verbal intonation was needed to know what you meant and how you viewed me in that exchange.