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Who are these articles for? I feel like Clojure’s value proposition is pretty well understood, and every last Clojure pitch can be relied upon to make the same

by moomin 2y ago

Who are these articles for? I feel like Clojure’s value proposition is pretty well understood, and every last Clojure pitch can be relied upon to make the same exact points.

jwr 2y ago
These articles are necessary to counteract armchair critics who are afraid of unfamiliar things and feel insecure. This crowd is loud: you can hear the choir of "but no one is using it, I tried it once and there were parentheses, I tried it and it was too hard, I hate the JVM" — there needs to be a voice that says it works (and works well!) for some people. FWIW, it works for me — I would not have been able to build and run my business without Clojure. The long-term stability is an especially important trait, under-appreciated by people who do not have a business to run.
- rednafi 2y ago
  It’s probably geared toward someone like me. JVM and parens are one angle. Another is that I get paid to work with distributed systems and databases, and Clojure isn’t even part of the discussion in that sphere. Go, Rust, and the usual Python and Node dominate there, so it’s hard for me to care. However, I dislike language monoculture and am curious about why people like the things I might not care about. This blog is for those.
  - jwr 2y ago
    > distributed systems and databases, and Clojure isn’t even part of the discussion in that sphere I'm not sure what a programming language has to do with distributed systems and databases, but as another data point, I happily work with distributed systems and databases, using Clojure :-) (see also https://jepsen.io https://jepsen.io which I would very much call a "part of the discussion in that sphere", written in Clojure)
  - huahaiy 2y ago
    I thought distributed system is exactly one of the things that got Clojure going to begin with. Remember Storm? As to databases, there are a fountain of databases emerging from the Clojure ecosystem: Datomic, Datascript, Datalevin, XTDB, and friends aside, there is Rama, which is a distributed database (or to replace database?)
- kunley 2y ago
  Where are these mythical armchair critics living normally, what do they do, how much of their time is put into plotting of how to bring a misery for Closure coders? Point of my sarcasm here is: you guys invoke them by yourself by writing overly defensive or overly religious posts. Then there will be ofc some critics, as with everything: they do not necessarily express a deliberate scheme against Clojure world. They are just some folks with different opinions, and also: very often wrong ones. But, as an advocate, please don't go into an offended teenager mode, when all the world plots against you; because a lot of rhetoric around defending Clojure sounds like that.
- fud101 2y ago
  The only counter argument that matters to me is there are hardly any jobs.

by moomin 2y ago

Who are these articles for? I feel like Clojure’s value proposition is pretty well understood, and every last Clojure pitch can be relied upon to make the same exact points.

jwr 2y ago

These articles are necessary to counteract armchair critics who are afraid of unfamiliar things and feel insecure. This crowd is loud: you can hear the choir of "but no one is using it, I tried it once and there were parentheses, I tried it and it was too hard, I hate the JVM" — there needs to be a voice that says it works (and works well!) for some people. FWIW, it works for me — I would not have been able to build and run my business without Clojure. The long-term stability is an especially important trait, under-appreciated by people who do not have a business to run.

rednafi 2y ago
It’s probably geared toward someone like me. JVM and parens are one angle. Another is that I get paid to work with distributed systems and databases, and Clojure isn’t even part of the discussion in that sphere. Go, Rust, and the usual Python and Node dominate there, so it’s hard for me to care. However, I dislike language monoculture and am curious about why people like the things I might not care about. This blog is for those.
- jwr 2y ago
  > distributed systems and databases, and Clojure isn’t even part of the discussion in that sphere I'm not sure what a programming language has to do with distributed systems and databases, but as another data point, I happily work with distributed systems and databases, using Clojure :-) (see also https://jepsen.io https://jepsen.io which I would very much call a "part of the discussion in that sphere", written in Clojure)
- huahaiy 2y ago
  I thought distributed system is exactly one of the things that got Clojure going to begin with. Remember Storm? As to databases, there are a fountain of databases emerging from the Clojure ecosystem: Datomic, Datascript, Datalevin, XTDB, and friends aside, there is Rama, which is a distributed database (or to replace database?)
kunley 2y ago
Where are these mythical armchair critics living normally, what do they do, how much of their time is put into plotting of how to bring a misery for Closure coders? Point of my sarcasm here is: you guys invoke them by yourself by writing overly defensive or overly religious posts. Then there will be ofc some critics, as with everything: they do not necessarily express a deliberate scheme against Clojure world. They are just some folks with different opinions, and also: very often wrong ones. But, as an advocate, please don't go into an offended teenager mode, when all the world plots against you; because a lot of rhetoric around defending Clojure sounds like that.
fud101 2y ago
The only counter argument that matters to me is there are hardly any jobs.