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High school, in the past, prepared people for college, so those who were not cut out already had a clear indication during high school. But due to dumbing-down

High school, in the past, prepared people for college, so those who were not cut out already had a clear indication during high school. But due to dumbing-down and grade inflation, they now learn the hard way during college. you can't afford college unless you have money, and you can't earn money unless you go to college. not really. there are tons of scholarships and other assistance. hardly anyone who goes to college is writing $30-100k checks.

anonym29 2y ago
A lot of those scholarships are locked along racial and gender lines. Immutable traits that, as a society, we have decided, as a foundational principle, are an unfair, unjust, unkind, and uncivil basis to discriminate upon. Equal representation is great. What's not great is producing a system that's so financially unsustainable for working class people that they're told to go solve what is framed as a merit-based challenge in exchange for money, but the qualification criteria for some crazy high percentage (something like 2/3rds, if my memory serves correct) of the challenges exclude certain cohorts of people based on demographic traits they have no control over, including race and gender. It's just a very unbecoming look for a progressive institution, it feels like we're deliberately trying to relive the racial and gender conflict of the last century by continuing to deliberately view all human interaction through the lense of race and gender, and framing race and gender filters as "merit" filters, almost as if to suggest that you can be a fundamentally flawed person by having the wrong chromosomes or ethnicity, rather than by viewing human interaction through the lense of interacting with actual individual people, who all have incredibly rich, deep, unique lived experiences that are not defined exclusively by demographic traits. I believe it's this point of view that leads to the common perception of higher education among the actual working class - that the American college experience was once something great, but got so watered down in pursuit of ideals other than education that it has essentially turned into a big summer camp for the adolscent offspring of the rich to extend the "party" of youth for a little bit longer, hopefully increasing their social credit score in the process, with actual learning being a "nice to have" along the way.
- tbrownaw 2y ago
  > framing race and gender filters as "merit" filters Do you have examples? I haven't gone systematically digging into this, but the general impression I've gotten is that this sort of explicit demographic filters are largely associated with the "equity" crowd rather than the "merit" crowd.
  - throwaway48476 2y ago
    I suspect such reframing is very recent.
- bloomingkales 2y ago
  extend the "party" of youth for a little bit longer Extending the party of youth is roughly one of the benefits of social welfare. When we took the children out of the factories in the 1920s, we extended their youth. When we sent them to college, we extended their youth. When we economically constrained them with high real estate prices, we extended their youth. Extending youthhood is fine, so long as we do it appropriately. For example, if we did it right, someone entering retirement enters a new youthhood of carefreeness. If we do it wrong, someone enters youthhood in theirs 20s as a dependent of their parents. There's a lot of wrong versions of the last thing I said, where people are kept children in academia to be parented indefinitely by tenor. It's delicate. We want to provide as much youthhood as possible in a good way, if we can. As to your first point, you can only be speaking of white men. To this I'll say, white men that come from the same economic situation should have access to the same scholarships. That's a easy one to fix. If you are working class then you are working class, this life is hard enough already.
  - bavell 2y ago
    No, we need more mature and responsible adults in the world, not adult-sized children.
999900000999 2y ago
>not really. there are tons of scholarships and other assistance. hardly anyone who goes to college is writing $30-100k checks. What was all this student loan forgiveness talk about then? Scholarships apparently haven't been cutting it, otherwise there wouldn't be a trillion plus of outstanding student loan debt.
- paulpauper 2y ago
  My point still stands though. The idea is people get jobs and pay the loans back.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    Yeah, how's those working class wages going?
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  I had plenty of scholarships and even the GI bill covering me. But I still ended up with 40k in debt at a state school (note that I took 5 years in college). Luckily, software jobs in the beginning of my career was a strong market, so I aggressively paid them off early into the pandemic. About 3-4 years post grad. But I know that's not the normal story.
bluGill 2y ago
High school is often sending the best kidsto college with half their first year done already with AP classes.
- vidanay 2y ago
  Between AP and dual credit, my kid should graduate HS with somewhere around 30 hours of college credit.
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    Bachelors level education by age 20 is a reasonable goal by age 2, and masters by 22.
    - 999900000999 2y ago
      You can straight up attend community college while in high school. That's what I did, tons of fun. Then I failed a couple of online classes because I wasn't really taking them seriously. Then I took in person classes at 18/19, fixed my GPA and generally did well. The only classes I really struggled with was Japanese and later French. With Japanese I pissed my Korean girlfriend off, and had to drop it. French I took for a pass/no pass and absolutely failed. You absolutely can get a BA by 20, but I'd be more interested in WHY you'd want to speed run academia. Sounds really stressful...
      - fn-mote 2y ago
        > WHY you'd want to speed run academia 1. You want or need to be making money instead of spending it. Eg, no family wealth involved; you’re paying for everything yourself 2. You don’t enjoy the high pressure (ish), test-driven environment and want to be doing more meaningful work. Etc. The number of people who don’t want to spend money and time in college might surprise you. I even know some very academically successful ones with this attitude.
      - lotsofpulp 2y ago
        > You absolutely can get a BA by 20, but I'd be more interested in WHY you'd want to speed run academia. Sounds really stressful... Even if you have all the money in the world, US high school standards are very low. With some affinity for reading and access to the internet, one can be learning at a far quicker rate, even without sacrificing social life outside of school. Many kids in the US already do this via Advanced Placement testing, but some states also allow high school students to take college courses.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
zamadatix 2y ago
College graduation vs dropout rates have been trending in the opposite direction than this take would suggest though. It could be because to be secondary education being better than you say or because colleges experienced the same kinds of changes. Either way though, the numbers suggest fewer people are finding out they aren't actually cut out for college after graduating high school.

anonym29 2y ago

A lot of those scholarships are locked along racial and gender lines. Immutable traits that, as a society, we have decided, as a foundational principle, are an unfair, unjust, unkind, and uncivil basis to discriminate upon. Equal representation is great. What's not great is producing a system that's so financially unsustainable for working class people that they're told to go solve what is framed as a merit-based challenge in exchange for money, but the qualification criteria for some crazy high percentage (something like 2/3rds, if my memory serves correct) of the challenges exclude certain cohorts of people based on demographic traits they have no control over, including race and gender. It's just a very unbecoming look for a progressive institution, it feels like we're deliberately trying to relive the racial and gender conflict of the last century by continuing to deliberately view all human interaction through the lense of race and gender, and framing race and gender filters as "merit" filters, almost as if to suggest that you can be a fundamentally flawed person by having the wrong chromosomes or ethnicity, rather than by viewing human interaction through the lense of interacting with actual individual people, who all have incredibly rich, deep, unique lived experiences that are not defined exclusively by demographic traits. I believe it's this point of view that leads to the common perception of higher education among the actual working class - that the American college experience was once something great, but got so watered down in pursuit of ideals other than education that it has essentially turned into a big summer camp for the adolscent offspring of the rich to extend the "party" of youth for a little bit longer, hopefully increasing their social credit score in the process, with actual learning being a "nice to have" along the way.

tbrownaw 2y ago
> framing race and gender filters as "merit" filters Do you have examples? I haven't gone systematically digging into this, but the general impression I've gotten is that this sort of explicit demographic filters are largely associated with the "equity" crowd rather than the "merit" crowd.
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  I suspect such reframing is very recent.
bloomingkales 2y ago
extend the "party" of youth for a little bit longer Extending the party of youth is roughly one of the benefits of social welfare. When we took the children out of the factories in the 1920s, we extended their youth. When we sent them to college, we extended their youth. When we economically constrained them with high real estate prices, we extended their youth. Extending youthhood is fine, so long as we do it appropriately. For example, if we did it right, someone entering retirement enters a new youthhood of carefreeness. If we do it wrong, someone enters youthhood in theirs 20s as a dependent of their parents. There's a lot of wrong versions of the last thing I said, where people are kept children in academia to be parented indefinitely by tenor. It's delicate. We want to provide as much youthhood as possible in a good way, if we can. As to your first point, you can only be speaking of white men. To this I'll say, white men that come from the same economic situation should have access to the same scholarships. That's a easy one to fix. If you are working class then you are working class, this life is hard enough already.
- bavell 2y ago
  No, we need more mature and responsible adults in the world, not adult-sized children.

999900000999 2y ago

>not really. there are tons of scholarships and other assistance. hardly anyone who goes to college is writing $30-100k checks. What was all this student loan forgiveness talk about then? Scholarships apparently haven't been cutting it, otherwise there wouldn't be a trillion plus of outstanding student loan debt.

paulpauper 2y ago
My point still stands though. The idea is people get jobs and pay the loans back.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  Yeah, how's those working class wages going?
johnnyanmac 2y ago
I had plenty of scholarships and even the GI bill covering me. But I still ended up with 40k in debt at a state school (note that I took 5 years in college). Luckily, software jobs in the beginning of my career was a strong market, so I aggressively paid them off early into the pandemic. About 3-4 years post grad. But I know that's not the normal story.

bluGill 2y ago

High school is often sending the best kidsto college with half their first year done already with AP classes.

vidanay 2y ago
Between AP and dual credit, my kid should graduate HS with somewhere around 30 hours of college credit.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  Bachelors level education by age 20 is a reasonable goal by age 2, and masters by 22.
  - 999900000999 2y ago
    You can straight up attend community college while in high school. That's what I did, tons of fun. Then I failed a couple of online classes because I wasn't really taking them seriously. Then I took in person classes at 18/19, fixed my GPA and generally did well. The only classes I really struggled with was Japanese and later French. With Japanese I pissed my Korean girlfriend off, and had to drop it. French I took for a pass/no pass and absolutely failed. You absolutely can get a BA by 20, but I'd be more interested in WHY you'd want to speed run academia. Sounds really stressful...
    - fn-mote 2y ago
      > WHY you'd want to speed run academia 1. You want or need to be making money instead of spending it. Eg, no family wealth involved; you’re paying for everything yourself 2. You don’t enjoy the high pressure (ish), test-driven environment and want to be doing more meaningful work. Etc. The number of people who don’t want to spend money and time in college might surprise you. I even know some very academically successful ones with this attitude.
    - lotsofpulp 2y ago
      > You absolutely can get a BA by 20, but I'd be more interested in WHY you'd want to speed run academia. Sounds really stressful... Even if you have all the money in the world, US high school standards are very low. With some affinity for reading and access to the internet, one can be learning at a far quicker rate, even without sacrificing social life outside of school. Many kids in the US already do this via Advanced Placement testing, but some states also allow high school students to take college courses.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

zamadatix 2y ago

College graduation vs dropout rates have been trending in the opposite direction than this take would suggest though. It could be because to be secondary education being better than you say or because colleges experienced the same kinds of changes. Either way though, the numbers suggest fewer people are finding out they aren't actually cut out for college after graduating high school.