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How is the efficiency of delivering fuel to cars compared to burning fuel centrally, generating electricy and delivering it to cars via the grid? Edit: From th

How is the efficiency of delivering fuel to cars compared to burning fuel centrally, generating electricy and delivering it to cars via the grid? Edit: From the answers, it looks like efficiency is better when the fuel is burned centrally. So what can be the benefit of turning off charging stations? If you want to strengthen the fuel industry, wouldn't it be better to burn the fuel centrally and feed the electricity into the grid?

armada651 2y ago
You can't really discount the electricity from other sources on the grid in that equation. An EV is also receiving power from sources like wind and solar unlike a non-hybrid gas-powered car. There's nothing more efficient than not burning the fuel at all.
toomuchtodo 2y ago
EVs always win, even when powered by coal, because of the thermal efficiency of larger generators. The grid gets cleaner/low carbon over time (and cheaper per kwh, broadly speaking, due to the lower cost of renewables vs legacy thermal), a combustion vehicle burns petroleum for its entire service life. The search keywords to surface this are "well to wheel efficiency." Electric vehicles use half the energy of gas-powered vehicles - https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2024/01/electric-vehicles-use-half-the-energy-of-gas-powered-vehicles/ https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2024/01/electric-vehicles... Levelized Cost of Energy+ - https://www.lazard.com/research-insights/levelized-cost-of-energyplus/ https://www.lazard.com/research-insights/levelized-cost-of-e... Well-to-wheels greenhouse gas emissions for cars by powertrains - https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/well-to-wheels-greenhouse-gas-emissions-for-cars-by-powertrains https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/well-to-wheel... Where Coal Is Retiring, and Hanging On, in the U.S. - https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/02/06/climate/coal-plants-retirement.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/02/06/climate/coal-... | https://archive.today/Egwuc https://archive.today/Egwuc New solar plants expected to support most U.S. electric generation growth - https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=64364 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=64364 > So what can be the benefit of turning off charging stations? If you want to strengthen the fuel industry, wouldn't it be better to burn the fuel centrally and feed the electricity into the grid? Spite and prioritizing the oil and gas industry for economic reasons. Which is somewhat humorous, as China is building EVs so fast, they are impairing the global oil market price. The US government simply cannot take enough action to assist the petroleum industry (for economic gains) to compensate for China's impact on the global oil market. Trump wants more drilling, but the oil market is already saturated - https://grist.org/energy/trump-wants-more-drilling-but-the-oil-market-is-already-saturated/ https://grist.org/energy/trump-wants-more-drilling-but-the-o... China’s Oil Demand Is Vanishing Faster Than It Looks - https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2025-01-19/china-s-oil-demand-is-vanishing-faster-than-it-looks https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2025-01-19/china-... | https://archive.today/BMo4N https://archive.today/BMo4N IEA Says Oil Demand Growth Weakness to Continue on China and EVs - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-10-21/iea-says-oil-demand-growth-weakness-to-continue-on-china-evs https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-10-21/iea-says-... | https://archive.today/2aN1j https://archive.today/2aN1j (50% of vehicles sold in 2024 in China were battery electric or plug in hybrids, "NEVs") > Some 60% of vehicles bought under the program last year came with a plug, and China’s car market is already at a tipping point: Battery and plug-in hybrid cars, locally termed New Energy Vehicles or NEVs, in December made up 49.4% of car sales, and 46.8% across the full year. Conventional and normal hybrid cars will be a minority of the market this year, and the only way is down: Bloomberg Intelligence estimates that NEVs will hit 68% market share in 2027 and 81% in 2030.
teraflop 2y ago
It's impossible to give a single answer to this because it depends on how you define "efficiency", and on what kinds of "fuel" you're talking about. If you define it as (say) pounds of CO2 emitted per mile driven, then electric cars are about as efficient as gasoline-powered ones if the electricity comes from coal plants, but significantly better if it comes from natural gas. And of course, way better if you have access to renewables.
SigmundA 2y ago
Lookup "well to wheel" efficiency. However many overlook the other benefit, which as software devs we should easily recognize. Powering your car with electricity abstracts the fuel from the use of the fuel. An electric car doesn't run on any one single type of fuel, it runs on whatever is available in the area.
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
Stop. They don't care. They want you to exhaust yourself over this and everything they are doing. They want to instill Russian style malaise by flooding crisis and making you defend all this stupid shit. They don't care the outcome. If you win you lose because you are exhausted and they just do the next thing. They have stated their goals prior to coming into power and none of it was efficiency. Stop giving them the benefit of the doubt and steelmanning a position they don't have. They want to destroy the American administrative state. "We want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected. When they wake up in the morning, we want them to not want to go to work" https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/11/books/review/administrative-state-trump-bannon.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/11/books/review/administrati...
- mindslight 2y ago
  > Stop giving them the benefit of the doubt and steelmanning a position they don't have. > They want to destroy the American administrative state. You did it a little yourself there. s/administrative//. They want to destroy the American nation state, period.
- Symbiote 2y ago
  I assume the GP is trolling. A fake curiosity in the form of an easily searched-for question. By asking it, they sow doubt on the previous consensus.
  - Freedom2 2y ago
    It's disappointing to hear this sentiment. GP is simply asking a question to keep the discussion curious, after all, this site is purely for "curious discussion". Trying to dismiss it as trolling actively detriments this forum for all.
atoav 2y ago
You still believe this is actually about efficency? With a president whose golf trips since he came into office racked up >10 million USD? I really want to have such optimism.
tyronehed 2y ago
This is just anti environmentalism, plain and simple. Sticking it to the libs is their number one priority.
robotresearcher 2y ago
> So what can be the benefit of turning off charging stations? It's a message about values. The message is fuck you. It's stupid on purpose, because fuck you.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

armada651 2y ago

You can't really discount the electricity from other sources on the grid in that equation. An EV is also receiving power from sources like wind and solar unlike a non-hybrid gas-powered car. There's nothing more efficient than not burning the fuel at all.

toomuchtodo 2y ago

EVs always win, even when powered by coal, because of the thermal efficiency of larger generators. The grid gets cleaner/low carbon over time (and cheaper per kwh, broadly speaking, due to the lower cost of renewables vs legacy thermal), a combustion vehicle burns petroleum for its entire service life. The search keywords to surface this are "well to wheel efficiency." Electric vehicles use half the energy of gas-powered vehicles - https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2024/01/electric-vehicles-use-half-the-energy-of-gas-powered-vehicles/ https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2024/01/electric-vehicles... Levelized Cost of Energy+ - https://www.lazard.com/research-insights/levelized-cost-of-energyplus/ https://www.lazard.com/research-insights/levelized-cost-of-e... Well-to-wheels greenhouse gas emissions for cars by powertrains - https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/well-to-wheels-greenhouse-gas-emissions-for-cars-by-powertrains https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/well-to-wheel... Where Coal Is Retiring, and Hanging On, in the U.S. - https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/02/06/climate/coal-plants-retirement.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/02/06/climate/coal-... | https://archive.today/Egwuc https://archive.today/Egwuc New solar plants expected to support most U.S. electric generation growth - https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=64364 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=64364 > So what can be the benefit of turning off charging stations? If you want to strengthen the fuel industry, wouldn't it be better to burn the fuel centrally and feed the electricity into the grid? Spite and prioritizing the oil and gas industry for economic reasons. Which is somewhat humorous, as China is building EVs so fast, they are impairing the global oil market price. The US government simply cannot take enough action to assist the petroleum industry (for economic gains) to compensate for China's impact on the global oil market. Trump wants more drilling, but the oil market is already saturated - https://grist.org/energy/trump-wants-more-drilling-but-the-oil-market-is-already-saturated/ https://grist.org/energy/trump-wants-more-drilling-but-the-o... China’s Oil Demand Is Vanishing Faster Than It Looks - https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2025-01-19/china-s-oil-demand-is-vanishing-faster-than-it-looks https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2025-01-19/china-... | https://archive.today/BMo4N https://archive.today/BMo4N IEA Says Oil Demand Growth Weakness to Continue on China and EVs - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-10-21/iea-says-oil-demand-growth-weakness-to-continue-on-china-evs https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-10-21/iea-says-... | https://archive.today/2aN1j https://archive.today/2aN1j (50% of vehicles sold in 2024 in China were battery electric or plug in hybrids, "NEVs") > Some 60% of vehicles bought under the program last year came with a plug, and China’s car market is already at a tipping point: Battery and plug-in hybrid cars, locally termed New Energy Vehicles or NEVs, in December made up 49.4% of car sales, and 46.8% across the full year. Conventional and normal hybrid cars will be a minority of the market this year, and the only way is down: Bloomberg Intelligence estimates that NEVs will hit 68% market share in 2027 and 81% in 2030.

teraflop 2y ago

It's impossible to give a single answer to this because it depends on how you define "efficiency", and on what kinds of "fuel" you're talking about. If you define it as (say) pounds of CO2 emitted per mile driven, then electric cars are about as efficient as gasoline-powered ones if the electricity comes from coal plants, but significantly better if it comes from natural gas. And of course, way better if you have access to renewables.

SigmundA 2y ago

Lookup "well to wheel" efficiency. However many overlook the other benefit, which as software devs we should easily recognize. Powering your car with electricity abstracts the fuel from the use of the fuel. An electric car doesn't run on any one single type of fuel, it runs on whatever is available in the area.

_DeadFred_ 2y ago

Stop. They don't care. They want you to exhaust yourself over this and everything they are doing. They want to instill Russian style malaise by flooding crisis and making you defend all this stupid shit. They don't care the outcome. If you win you lose because you are exhausted and they just do the next thing. They have stated their goals prior to coming into power and none of it was efficiency. Stop giving them the benefit of the doubt and steelmanning a position they don't have. They want to destroy the American administrative state. "We want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected. When they wake up in the morning, we want them to not want to go to work" https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/11/books/review/administrative-state-trump-bannon.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/11/books/review/administrati...

mindslight 2y ago
> Stop giving them the benefit of the doubt and steelmanning a position they don't have. > They want to destroy the American administrative state. You did it a little yourself there. s/administrative//. They want to destroy the American nation state, period.
Symbiote 2y ago
I assume the GP is trolling. A fake curiosity in the form of an easily searched-for question. By asking it, they sow doubt on the previous consensus.
- Freedom2 2y ago
  It's disappointing to hear this sentiment. GP is simply asking a question to keep the discussion curious, after all, this site is purely for "curious discussion". Trying to dismiss it as trolling actively detriments this forum for all.

atoav 2y ago

You still believe this is actually about efficency? With a president whose golf trips since he came into office racked up >10 million USD? I really want to have such optimism.

tyronehed 2y ago

This is just anti environmentalism, plain and simple. Sticking it to the libs is their number one priority.

robotresearcher 2y ago

> So what can be the benefit of turning off charging stations? It's a message about values. The message is fuck you. It's stupid on purpose, because fuck you.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]