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Yes agreed, but the 'idea' is diluted when it's only about decentralized money. The truly powerful promise of Web3/crypto decentralization is in creating altern

Yes agreed, but the 'idea' is diluted when it's only about decentralized money. The truly powerful promise of Web3/crypto decentralization is in creating alternative economic ecosystems that empower users and communities. We're obviously still in the teething stages of the technology and need some serious improvements to underlying security; and to move beyond scams and ponzi structures.

woodruffw 2y ago
> The truly powerful promise of Web3/crypto decentralization is in creating alternative economic ecosystems that empower users and communities. What does this mean? It’s indistinguishable from marketing chaff. It occurs to me that the biggest recent successes in “alternative” ecosystems have absolutely nothing to do with cryptocurrencies. Mastodon comes to mind.
- hecanjog 2y ago
  I'm sort of worried they're hinting at these "network states", which seem well placed to not only trick people into parting with their money, but also potentially their homes. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwyl171lyewo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwyl171lyewo
- fallinditch 2y ago
  Yes it does sound like marketing speak, my bad. So deFi can help users and communities because decentralized financial systems, allow users to lend, borrow, and trade without intermediaries, enhancing financial inclusivity and reducing costs. Web3 technologies can facilitate community-driven initiatives, e.g. regenerative finance (ReFi), which supports climate action and equitable resource allocation. Also some interesting things happening around DAOs (decentralized autonomous organizations) e.g. Venture DAOs supporting new business creation. In general the principles behind having reduced intermediaries, and having user control and ownership of user data, together with enlightened uses of smart contract and other Web3 technologies is empowering, especially if it's put to use to solve real world problems. I do think that it's difficult to see past the sometimes murky shenanigans and greed often on display in Web3. But I think decentralization is a paradigm shift, it's going to take some visionary entrepreneurs and technologists to continue to build out the promise but I believe that it will happen.
  - FabHK 2y ago
    You can't do uncollateralised borrowing/lending without credit checks, that is interaction with the real world. This requires trusted centralized counterparties, identity, etc., and is not suited for permissionless blockchains. Trading equity/FX on centralized platforms is extraordinarily cheap. You don't save much, if anything, by going decentralized there (not to mention the fact that to enter the crypto system, you need to exchange fiat (hard to get crypto by mining these days), and Coinbase charges consumers 1.55% on average for that, so 3% for a round-trip back to fiat.) Having control of user data is orthogonal to the technology. It's a legal matter. We could retain ownership of a tweet with a different contract. The nature of the underlying distributed database hardly matters. The vision of crypto has failed. Instead of reducing intermediaries, it gave rise to a whole new host of intermediaries, and enormous externalities (environments, scams, hacks, crime).
    - fallinditch 2y ago
      Thanks for your reply, food for thought. I take your point about uncolateralized loans, although I believe there is some interesting work going on with zero knowledge proofs that can help to assess creditworthiness without revealing sensitive information. It's an interesting time: we're seeing mainstream adoption of blockchain and crypto technologies at the same time that shitcoin madness is trending. The basic concepts behind smart contracts are sound and enable efficient transactions and alternative economic systems, this is why I believe we'll increasingly see major institutions adopting it. As far as community and user empowerment and creating alternative economic ecosystems, it will inevitably take some time to realize effective systems and usage models. I think there is huge potential, still early days. Thanks for the healthy scepticism though, I probably need more of it!
brendoelfrendo 2y ago
Bitcoin's initial release was in 2009. Web3 was coined in 2014 and the first NFT was minted soon after. These technologies are not infants, and they're not teething. They're just toothless.
- FabHK 2y ago
  Toothless indeed. The whole "It's early days" narrative is so misguided. The smartphone is maybe a year older than crypto, but a roaring success. Nobody needs to explain [1] how great smartphones are, because they're obviously useful. Similarly, within a decade of the invention of the WWW, there were heaps of successful and useful sites (amazon, Bloomberg, Wired, Friendster, ...). [1] Note that Steve Jobs, when he introduced the iPhone, did have to explain it. He carefully explained that it was an iPod, a phone, and an internet communicator, demonstrated how to unlock it, how to scroll, how to open apps, etc. But then people got it. With crypto, after 15 years "you just don't get it".
mvdtnz 2y ago
Stop. The idea is dead. This is getting embarrassing.
tim333 2y ago
We are beyond the teething stages and have seen alternative economic ecosystems that do stuff to users and communities but they mostly seem to be slave labour scam centers in Myanmar. It seems if you give humans anonymous non reversible financial transaction technology the results are not all good. I think the problems are with the humans as much as the tech.

woodruffw 2y ago

> The truly powerful promise of Web3/crypto decentralization is in creating alternative economic ecosystems that empower users and communities. What does this mean? It’s indistinguishable from marketing chaff. It occurs to me that the biggest recent successes in “alternative” ecosystems have absolutely nothing to do with cryptocurrencies. Mastodon comes to mind.

hecanjog 2y ago
I'm sort of worried they're hinting at these "network states", which seem well placed to not only trick people into parting with their money, but also potentially their homes. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwyl171lyewo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwyl171lyewo
fallinditch 2y ago
Yes it does sound like marketing speak, my bad. So deFi can help users and communities because decentralized financial systems, allow users to lend, borrow, and trade without intermediaries, enhancing financial inclusivity and reducing costs. Web3 technologies can facilitate community-driven initiatives, e.g. regenerative finance (ReFi), which supports climate action and equitable resource allocation. Also some interesting things happening around DAOs (decentralized autonomous organizations) e.g. Venture DAOs supporting new business creation. In general the principles behind having reduced intermediaries, and having user control and ownership of user data, together with enlightened uses of smart contract and other Web3 technologies is empowering, especially if it's put to use to solve real world problems. I do think that it's difficult to see past the sometimes murky shenanigans and greed often on display in Web3. But I think decentralization is a paradigm shift, it's going to take some visionary entrepreneurs and technologists to continue to build out the promise but I believe that it will happen.
- FabHK 2y ago
  You can't do uncollateralised borrowing/lending without credit checks, that is interaction with the real world. This requires trusted centralized counterparties, identity, etc., and is not suited for permissionless blockchains. Trading equity/FX on centralized platforms is extraordinarily cheap. You don't save much, if anything, by going decentralized there (not to mention the fact that to enter the crypto system, you need to exchange fiat (hard to get crypto by mining these days), and Coinbase charges consumers 1.55% on average for that, so 3% for a round-trip back to fiat.) Having control of user data is orthogonal to the technology. It's a legal matter. We could retain ownership of a tweet with a different contract. The nature of the underlying distributed database hardly matters. The vision of crypto has failed. Instead of reducing intermediaries, it gave rise to a whole new host of intermediaries, and enormous externalities (environments, scams, hacks, crime).
  - fallinditch 2y ago
    Thanks for your reply, food for thought. I take your point about uncolateralized loans, although I believe there is some interesting work going on with zero knowledge proofs that can help to assess creditworthiness without revealing sensitive information. It's an interesting time: we're seeing mainstream adoption of blockchain and crypto technologies at the same time that shitcoin madness is trending. The basic concepts behind smart contracts are sound and enable efficient transactions and alternative economic systems, this is why I believe we'll increasingly see major institutions adopting it. As far as community and user empowerment and creating alternative economic ecosystems, it will inevitably take some time to realize effective systems and usage models. I think there is huge potential, still early days. Thanks for the healthy scepticism though, I probably need more of it!

brendoelfrendo 2y ago

Bitcoin's initial release was in 2009. Web3 was coined in 2014 and the first NFT was minted soon after. These technologies are not infants, and they're not teething. They're just toothless.

FabHK 2y ago
Toothless indeed. The whole "It's early days" narrative is so misguided. The smartphone is maybe a year older than crypto, but a roaring success. Nobody needs to explain [1] how great smartphones are, because they're obviously useful. Similarly, within a decade of the invention of the WWW, there were heaps of successful and useful sites (amazon, Bloomberg, Wired, Friendster, ...). [1] Note that Steve Jobs, when he introduced the iPhone, did have to explain it. He carefully explained that it was an iPod, a phone, and an internet communicator, demonstrated how to unlock it, how to scroll, how to open apps, etc. But then people got it. With crypto, after 15 years "you just don't get it".

mvdtnz 2y ago

Stop. The idea is dead. This is getting embarrassing.

tim333 2y ago

We are beyond the teething stages and have seen alternative economic ecosystems that do stuff to users and communities but they mostly seem to be slave labour scam centers in Myanmar. It seems if you give humans anonymous non reversible financial transaction technology the results are not all good. I think the problems are with the humans as much as the tech.