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This is the kind of thing you don't have to contend with if you host outside of Europe. I don't care about your beef with Russia, I do care about free speech th

by bbqfog 2y ago

This is the kind of thing you don't have to contend with if you host outside of Europe. I don't care about your beef with Russia, I do care about free speech though.

rwyinuse 2y ago
It's indeed easy not to care about "our beef with Russia" when you're far away from them. The feeling is quite different when you live next to them, and know that your home might get bombed one day because of Putin's geopolitical fantasies you have absolutely no control over. I like free speech, but I would rather not die because an army of Russian trolls managed to replace Western democratic governments with Russian puppets.
- bbqfog 2y ago
  Just food for thought... I have a hard time viewing the people who want to restrict speech as my ally. Quite the opposite. I'll take so-called (likely fictional) "trolls" over restrictions of speech any day of the week.
  - rwyinuse 2y ago
    I don't see why anybody would doubt the existence of those trolls. It's quite obvious that social media can be cheap and efficient tool for spreading propaganda, and information warfare / spreading propaganda among your enemies is nothing new. It's done by many nation states and other actors, Russia is just among the most successful. Anyway, I tend to agree that "too much" freedom of speech is not the real issue here. Across Western world, neoliberal economic policy has failed to bring prosperity among large segments of population. Politicians have also ignored very real issues, such as failed humanitarian migration policies, DEI-policies which discriminate against particular "privileged" groups and so on. Trolls would have much lower success rate, and far right parties would be much smaller if these concerns had been taken seriously before by mainstream parties. People who are happy and optimistic about their lives and future rarely become extremists.
    - bbqfog 2y ago
      I find it ironic since your complaint about DEI almost certainly comes from the dreaded trolls you're referencing. I don't actually need a "troll" to tell me I don't want to spend billions of my tax dollars defending Europe when everywhere you look in the US things are falling apart. That's not Russia, it's just reality.
ako 2y ago
Online warfare is warfare, and russias lies can destabilize working democracies. We all know the stories of the horrors of the 2nd world war, and never again also means fighting online warfare. Freedom is more important than freedom of lies. I’m sure that if you ask people who experienced the 2nd world war to choose between freedom and freedom of lies, they’d choose freedom. Also, a vote for the right is a vote to increase the gap between the poor and the wealthy, things will only get worse.
- bbqfog 2y ago
  My own country lies to me far more than Russia could ever even dream it. The president of the US went on live tv and said he saw non-existent "beheaded babies" just to service Israel. Russia isn't even a blip of a problem for US citizens (other than the Ukraine stealing our tax dollars). In fact, a lot of people that want to take away our freedoms seem to be anti-Russia, so at worst they're the enemy of our enemy. I don't vote "right" because the Democrats and the Republicans are both working against my interests.
  - ako 2y ago
    As soon as citizens no longer trust their democratic government, democracy stops being effective. I the Netherlands I think the governments have done a pretty decent job (although far from perfect, but compared to other countries they’re top of class) and I trust that most people in government are trying to do the right thing. A lot of the online lies are aimed at creating this distrust so democracies stop working. And that distrust starts with this dishonest framing like ‘ukrain are stealing our dollars’. No they’re not, it’s your politicians that decided it was in the interest of the US to have wars: fight hitler (thank you!), fight communism in Vietnam, fund and later fight saddam, fund and later fight taliban. But now you have a government that no longer thinks fighting Putin is useful, because they think the Russian style of government is the way to go, and not a threat to the US way of life. I doubt they’re right, the average Russian in the country leads a very poor life, and freedom is not a priority in Russia, if you disagree with government you will get thrown out of a window. But your government is now following the government style of Russia, not following the rules of law, not following democratic, constitutional rules. Do you really want to be next Russia?

by bbqfog 2y ago

This is the kind of thing you don't have to contend with if you host outside of Europe. I don't care about your beef with Russia, I do care about free speech though.

rwyinuse 2y ago

It's indeed easy not to care about "our beef with Russia" when you're far away from them. The feeling is quite different when you live next to them, and know that your home might get bombed one day because of Putin's geopolitical fantasies you have absolutely no control over. I like free speech, but I would rather not die because an army of Russian trolls managed to replace Western democratic governments with Russian puppets.

bbqfog 2y ago
Just food for thought... I have a hard time viewing the people who want to restrict speech as my ally. Quite the opposite. I'll take so-called (likely fictional) "trolls" over restrictions of speech any day of the week.
- rwyinuse 2y ago
  I don't see why anybody would doubt the existence of those trolls. It's quite obvious that social media can be cheap and efficient tool for spreading propaganda, and information warfare / spreading propaganda among your enemies is nothing new. It's done by many nation states and other actors, Russia is just among the most successful. Anyway, I tend to agree that "too much" freedom of speech is not the real issue here. Across Western world, neoliberal economic policy has failed to bring prosperity among large segments of population. Politicians have also ignored very real issues, such as failed humanitarian migration policies, DEI-policies which discriminate against particular "privileged" groups and so on. Trolls would have much lower success rate, and far right parties would be much smaller if these concerns had been taken seriously before by mainstream parties. People who are happy and optimistic about their lives and future rarely become extremists.
  - bbqfog 2y ago
    I find it ironic since your complaint about DEI almost certainly comes from the dreaded trolls you're referencing. I don't actually need a "troll" to tell me I don't want to spend billions of my tax dollars defending Europe when everywhere you look in the US things are falling apart. That's not Russia, it's just reality.

ako 2y ago

Online warfare is warfare, and russias lies can destabilize working democracies. We all know the stories of the horrors of the 2nd world war, and never again also means fighting online warfare. Freedom is more important than freedom of lies. I’m sure that if you ask people who experienced the 2nd world war to choose between freedom and freedom of lies, they’d choose freedom. Also, a vote for the right is a vote to increase the gap between the poor and the wealthy, things will only get worse.

bbqfog 2y ago
My own country lies to me far more than Russia could ever even dream it. The president of the US went on live tv and said he saw non-existent "beheaded babies" just to service Israel. Russia isn't even a blip of a problem for US citizens (other than the Ukraine stealing our tax dollars). In fact, a lot of people that want to take away our freedoms seem to be anti-Russia, so at worst they're the enemy of our enemy. I don't vote "right" because the Democrats and the Republicans are both working against my interests.
- ako 2y ago
  As soon as citizens no longer trust their democratic government, democracy stops being effective. I the Netherlands I think the governments have done a pretty decent job (although far from perfect, but compared to other countries they’re top of class) and I trust that most people in government are trying to do the right thing. A lot of the online lies are aimed at creating this distrust so democracies stop working. And that distrust starts with this dishonest framing like ‘ukrain are stealing our dollars’. No they’re not, it’s your politicians that decided it was in the interest of the US to have wars: fight hitler (thank you!), fight communism in Vietnam, fund and later fight saddam, fund and later fight taliban. But now you have a government that no longer thinks fighting Putin is useful, because they think the Russian style of government is the way to go, and not a threat to the US way of life. I doubt they’re right, the average Russian in the country leads a very poor life, and freedom is not a priority in Russia, if you disagree with government you will get thrown out of a window. But your government is now following the government style of Russia, not following the rules of law, not following democratic, constitutional rules. Do you really want to be next Russia?