8 ms·

Gambling on papal conclaves

50 points by FergusArgyll 2y ago

Mistletoe 2y ago
If anyone hasn’t seen Conclave I really recommend it. It seems so boring, but my girlfriend and I were fascinated the whole movie.
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  It’s also widely considered by Catholics to be seriously inaccurate; and the subject matter has been settled for centuries. Basically, it’s about as historically and religiously accurate as Gladiator or Braveheart. Take that how you will. I say this as somebody who liked Gladiator, but know better than to take anything in it seriously (even basic things, like the “thumbs up” to allow life, is inaccurate).
  - teolandon 2y ago
    It's very obviously fictional.
    - bowsamic 2y ago
      I think that most people who watched it will assume it’s well researched
      - FearNotDaniel 2y ago
        To be fair, the question of whether it’s historically accurate is irrelevant because the film obviously doesn’t depict real events with real cardinals… even to the viewer who knows nothing about who is who in the real-life Catholic hierarchy, the terrorist event that triggers a major plot twist should be a big clue that this is a fictional thriller, not a documentary. Apart from that, the setting is contemporary so history has nothing to do with it. So it’s a gossipy political thriller where the setting is the Vatican, not the White House or the House of Lords. The question remains: is it a reasonably faithful depiction of the way a real papal conclave operates, in both procedure and the negotiation/clique-forming/decision-making process? Catholic friends of mine who know much more than I do about what goes on in Rome actually have the opposite fear: that it is all too realistic and exposes too much about the power games that go on instead of earnestly seeking the good of the faith, and of the faithful. If that’s the case, then in the long run it can only be good because, as Christ Himself said: “you shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32) Edit: to be fair, there are some flashbacks in the film to historical events taking place in Latin America, IIRC these are also fictionalized but yeah, I could imagine someone who knows the history of that particular situation being able to say that it's innacurately depicted; however that's not the key theme of the film's narrative, which is a contemporary papal election. By contrast the film "The Two Popes" does deserve the historically-inaccurate tag, because it depicts a meeting between two real-life people which definitely never happened and is purely the imagination of the playwright who asked himself "what if?" In that case, I do wish that the film would preface itself by making it clear that it is purely a flight of fancy in order to explore ideas around faith, theology and succession because I'm sure a lot of people really do believe that Francis did have private conversations with Benedikt and received his endorsement.
  - Mistletoe 2y ago
    You sure about that? > He consulted Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor as part of his research for the book. He later gave Murphy-O'Connor a copy of the novel, and to his surprise, Murphy-O'Connor sent a letter praising its accuracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conclave_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conclave_(novel) The Cardinal was the Archbishop of Westminster and president of the Catholic Bishops' Conference of England and Wales so I think he would know.
- sandworm101 2y ago
  I've probably seen a dozen movies and TV shows about various conclaves. This movie seemed like a well-made and perfectly normal movie about the subject... with a couple lines tacked on at the very end in a grasping attempt to seem edgy. Jude Law's The Young Pope or even Jeremy Iron's The Borgias covered the subject better imho.
  - bowsamic 2y ago
    I don’t think it was edgy at the end. It left it extremely morally ambiguous on behalf of the protagonist rather than making him too saintly. It was left unclear how he felt about the ending
  - righthand 2y ago
    The point of Conclave isn't to demonstrate how the cardinals vote and the pope picking process. It's to analyze and dwell on how people are treated and viewed. What makes you trust and distrust someone who hasn't been entirely honest with you? The ending twist isn't to be edgy it's to bring up a topic that many Catholics need to deal with relative to the trust thesis of the movie.
    - vasco 2y ago
      The point is whatever you make of it. Movies (art in general) don't have a "point" that you need to get right.
      - righthand 2y ago
        Movies do have a point. Sure art has a “eye of the beholder” view-point but most art has intention the artist is trying to covey. People don’t just make a movie and say “hey what if we tack this wild ending on to it, that would really confuse people”.
        vasco 2y ago
        The artist having an intention when creating the art doesn't mean the purpose of the beholder is to find out that intention, or to "get the point". You're mixing stuff up.
anonu 2y ago
Still Alive and Well: https://polymarket.com/event/who-will-be-the-next-pope?tid=1740628633701 https://polymarket.com/event/who-will-be-the-next-pope?tid=1...
- checkyoursudo 2y ago
  Surely the hopes for Pope Pizzaballa is in part because of his name?
  - madcaptenor 2y ago
    Surely. But popes are called by their first name, and almost always a first name they choose, so there won't actually be a Pope Pizzaballa.
    - pdabbadabba 2y ago
      He could be! Popes pick their new names, after all. But yeah, he'd probably pick "Innocent" or something less amusing.
      - madcaptenor 2y ago
        I do wonder what would happen if some cardinal already named John or Gregory or some other indisputably papal name got elected. Would he keep his name?
        nerdile 2y ago
        He might be seen as presumptuous for already having a pope name and get sunk in the Vatican politics.
  - pdabbadabba 2y ago
    I will remember Pizzaballa forever for two reasons: 1. Great name. 2. After October 7, he offered to trade himself for Hamas's hostages. [1] [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/jerusalem-catholic-patriarch-offers-be-exchanged-gaza-hostages-2023-10-16/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/jerusalem-catholic...
nisalperi 2y ago
I remember The Bugle podcast doing a bit about this back in 2013. Didn’t realize this was an actual thing.
gmoot 2y ago
Seems like it should be a mortal sin or something. Also - the "Doge of Venice" ? What are the odds.
- aidenn0 2y ago
  https://canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2013/02/26/betting-on-the-conclave/ https://canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2013/02/26/betting-on-the...
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  “Gregory XIV's bull of excommunication as a penalty for such wagers was never specifically rescinded, but was abrogated along with all canon law provisions associated with the Ius Decretalium in 1918.” While technically speaking it doesn’t take a bull to be a mortal sin, discretion and a well formed conscience matters here. There’s also a huge difference between $10 among friends, and $20,000 among cardinals or princes. The original prohibition was most likely to prevent the latter.
- trhway 2y ago
  >mortal sin for that shouldn't it be damaging to somebody or to your own soul? How would betting damage your soul?
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    I'm not catholic but I don't think that's necessary in their framework, no. An action driving you further from god is a sin even if you can't articulate a material harm caused by it. I suppose the logic is something like "creating and holding the kind of cynical distance from momentous world events that would allow you to gamble on them weakens your connection to god's creation and therefor god himself."
29athrowaway 2y ago
A papal conclave could be understood as a contest led by votes making it illegal.
- FearNotDaniel 2y ago
  Illegal in which jurisdiction? The Vatican is an independent sovereign state so whatever laws you think apply are unlikely to be in force there.
- falcor84 2y ago
  What do you mean? Wouldn't this reasoning make any election illegal?
  - 29athrowaway 2y ago
    Gambling on a contest
    - falcor84 2y ago
      It's illegal to gamble on a contest? Where?
riffraff 2y ago
Worth remembering "lottery" also derives from Genoa's "lotto", which was betting on public elections were 5 members of the Great Council were drawn out of a 90 candidates pool.
- alberto_ol 2y ago
  Do you have any source? I did not not find any reference to Genoa in dfferent dictionaries (in English and Italian). https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=lottery https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=lottery https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lottery https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lottery https://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/lotteria/?search=lotter%C3%ACa%2F https://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/lotteria/?search=lotter%... https://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/lotto/?search=l%C3%B2tto%2F https://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/lotto/?search=l%C3%B2tto...
  - riffraff 2y ago
    sorry for being misleading! I didn't mean the word, but the actual gambling game which became popular in Genoa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lottery#Medieval_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lottery#Medieval_history EDIT: I notice wikipedia is unsourced too, but Britannica mentions it https://www.britannica.com/topic/lottery https://www.britannica.com/topic/lottery

50 points by FergusArgyll 2y ago

If anyone hasn’t seen Conclave I really recommend it. It seems so boring, but my girlfriend and I were fascinated the whole movie.

gjsman-1000 2y ago
It’s also widely considered by Catholics to be seriously inaccurate; and the subject matter has been settled for centuries. Basically, it’s about as historically and religiously accurate as Gladiator or Braveheart. Take that how you will. I say this as somebody who liked Gladiator, but know better than to take anything in it seriously (even basic things, like the “thumbs up” to allow life, is inaccurate).
- teolandon 2y ago
  It's very obviously fictional.
  - bowsamic 2y ago
    I think that most people who watched it will assume it’s well researched
    - FearNotDaniel 2y ago
      To be fair, the question of whether it’s historically accurate is irrelevant because the film obviously doesn’t depict real events with real cardinals… even to the viewer who knows nothing about who is who in the real-life Catholic hierarchy, the terrorist event that triggers a major plot twist should be a big clue that this is a fictional thriller, not a documentary. Apart from that, the setting is contemporary so history has nothing to do with it. So it’s a gossipy political thriller where the setting is the Vatican, not the White House or the House of Lords. The question remains: is it a reasonably faithful depiction of the way a real papal conclave operates, in both procedure and the negotiation/clique-forming/decision-making process? Catholic friends of mine who know much more than I do about what goes on in Rome actually have the opposite fear: that it is all too realistic and exposes too much about the power games that go on instead of earnestly seeking the good of the faith, and of the faithful. If that’s the case, then in the long run it can only be good because, as Christ Himself said: “you shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32) Edit: to be fair, there are some flashbacks in the film to historical events taking place in Latin America, IIRC these are also fictionalized but yeah, I could imagine someone who knows the history of that particular situation being able to say that it's innacurately depicted; however that's not the key theme of the film's narrative, which is a contemporary papal election. By contrast the film "The Two Popes" does deserve the historically-inaccurate tag, because it depicts a meeting between two real-life people which definitely never happened and is purely the imagination of the playwright who asked himself "what if?" In that case, I do wish that the film would preface itself by making it clear that it is purely a flight of fancy in order to explore ideas around faith, theology and succession because I'm sure a lot of people really do believe that Francis did have private conversations with Benedikt and received his endorsement.
- Mistletoe 2y ago
  You sure about that? > He consulted Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor as part of his research for the book. He later gave Murphy-O'Connor a copy of the novel, and to his surprise, Murphy-O'Connor sent a letter praising its accuracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conclave_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conclave_(novel) The Cardinal was the Archbishop of Westminster and president of the Catholic Bishops' Conference of England and Wales so I think he would know.
sandworm101 2y ago
I've probably seen a dozen movies and TV shows about various conclaves. This movie seemed like a well-made and perfectly normal movie about the subject... with a couple lines tacked on at the very end in a grasping attempt to seem edgy. Jude Law's The Young Pope or even Jeremy Iron's The Borgias covered the subject better imho.
- bowsamic 2y ago
  I don’t think it was edgy at the end. It left it extremely morally ambiguous on behalf of the protagonist rather than making him too saintly. It was left unclear how he felt about the ending
- righthand 2y ago
  The point of Conclave isn't to demonstrate how the cardinals vote and the pope picking process. It's to analyze and dwell on how people are treated and viewed. What makes you trust and distrust someone who hasn't been entirely honest with you? The ending twist isn't to be edgy it's to bring up a topic that many Catholics need to deal with relative to the trust thesis of the movie.
  - vasco 2y ago
    The point is whatever you make of it. Movies (art in general) don't have a "point" that you need to get right.
    - righthand 2y ago
      Movies do have a point. Sure art has a “eye of the beholder” view-point but most art has intention the artist is trying to covey. People don’t just make a movie and say “hey what if we tack this wild ending on to it, that would really confuse people”.
      - vasco 2y ago
        The artist having an intention when creating the art doesn't mean the purpose of the beholder is to find out that intention, or to "get the point". You're mixing stuff up.

anonu 2y ago

Still Alive and Well: https://polymarket.com/event/who-will-be-the-next-pope?tid=1740628633701 https://polymarket.com/event/who-will-be-the-next-pope?tid=1...

checkyoursudo 2y ago
Surely the hopes for Pope Pizzaballa is in part because of his name?
- madcaptenor 2y ago
  Surely. But popes are called by their first name, and almost always a first name they choose, so there won't actually be a Pope Pizzaballa.
  - pdabbadabba 2y ago
    He could be! Popes pick their new names, after all. But yeah, he'd probably pick "Innocent" or something less amusing.
    - madcaptenor 2y ago
      I do wonder what would happen if some cardinal already named John or Gregory or some other indisputably papal name got elected. Would he keep his name?
      - nerdile 2y ago
        He might be seen as presumptuous for already having a pope name and get sunk in the Vatican politics.
- pdabbadabba 2y ago
  I will remember Pizzaballa forever for two reasons: 1. Great name. 2. After October 7, he offered to trade himself for Hamas's hostages. [1] [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/jerusalem-catholic-patriarch-offers-be-exchanged-gaza-hostages-2023-10-16/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/jerusalem-catholic...

nisalperi 2y ago

I remember The Bugle podcast doing a bit about this back in 2013. Didn’t realize this was an actual thing.

gmoot 2y ago

Seems like it should be a mortal sin or something. Also - the "Doge of Venice" ? What are the odds.

aidenn0 2y ago
https://canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2013/02/26/betting-on-the-conclave/ https://canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2013/02/26/betting-on-the...
gjsman-1000 2y ago
“Gregory XIV's bull of excommunication as a penalty for such wagers was never specifically rescinded, but was abrogated along with all canon law provisions associated with the Ius Decretalium in 1918.” While technically speaking it doesn’t take a bull to be a mortal sin, discretion and a well formed conscience matters here. There’s also a huge difference between $10 among friends, and $20,000 among cardinals or princes. The original prohibition was most likely to prevent the latter.
trhway 2y ago
>mortal sin for that shouldn't it be damaging to somebody or to your own soul? How would betting damage your soul?
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  I'm not catholic but I don't think that's necessary in their framework, no. An action driving you further from god is a sin even if you can't articulate a material harm caused by it. I suppose the logic is something like "creating and holding the kind of cynical distance from momentous world events that would allow you to gamble on them weakens your connection to god's creation and therefor god himself."

29athrowaway 2y ago

A papal conclave could be understood as a contest led by votes making it illegal.

FearNotDaniel 2y ago
Illegal in which jurisdiction? The Vatican is an independent sovereign state so whatever laws you think apply are unlikely to be in force there.
falcor84 2y ago
What do you mean? Wouldn't this reasoning make any election illegal?
- 29athrowaway 2y ago
  Gambling on a contest
  - falcor84 2y ago
    It's illegal to gamble on a contest? Where?

riffraff 2y ago

Worth remembering "lottery" also derives from Genoa's "lotto", which was betting on public elections were 5 members of the Great Council were drawn out of a 90 candidates pool.

alberto_ol 2y ago
Do you have any source? I did not not find any reference to Genoa in dfferent dictionaries (in English and Italian). https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=lottery https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=lottery https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lottery https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lottery https://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/lotteria/?search=lotter%C3%ACa%2F https://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/lotteria/?search=lotter%... https://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/lotto/?search=l%C3%B2tto%2F https://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/lotto/?search=l%C3%B2tto...
- riffraff 2y ago
  sorry for being misleading! I didn't mean the word, but the actual gambling game which became popular in Genoa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lottery#Medieval_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lottery#Medieval_history EDIT: I notice wikipedia is unsourced too, but Britannica mentions it https://www.britannica.com/topic/lottery https://www.britannica.com/topic/lottery