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Did none of these people read Machiavelli? Relying too much on foreign governments, especially "friendly" imperialists is never safe because it gives them a de

Did none of these people read Machiavelli? Relying too much on foreign governments, especially "friendly" imperialists is never safe because it gives them a degree of control over you. That's a problem no matter who is in charge. If you slept through the PRISM scandal and are only regretting your failure to take action because you don't like the guy who just won an election, then you're beyond salvation. At the very minimum you should be encrypting all data before you transmit it to machines you don't physically control, but even that's not necessarily good enough because it still gives them the ability to withhold that data from you. And that's to speak nothing of some hypothetical future technology that may be able to defeat your encryption entirely.

ideashower 2y ago
I haven't read Machiavelli, where would you recommend I begin for this in particular?
- Pooge 2y ago
  The Prince[1]. Although I think it's not very "readable" for today's standards. I've had a much easier time reading political science books that were written more recently. [1]: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/57037 https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/57037
  - cutemonster 2y ago
    I'd be interested if you have any recent book suggestions
    - snickerbockers 2y ago
      yeah, uh, well he's been on a bit of a sabbatical for the last five centuries so there aren't any recent ones. Not sure when he's planning to come out of retirement.
      - cutemonster 2y ago
        Check the sibling comment for tips (maybe he has reincarnated)
    - Pooge 2y ago
      I enjoyed The Dictator's Handbook[1] and Why Nations Fail[2] quite a lot. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dictator%27s_Handbook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dictator%27s_Handbook [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Nations_Fail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Nations_Fail
      - cutemonster 2y ago
        Thanks! I've read half of one of them (I like it) will check out the other too
- svilen_dobrev 2y ago
  check this "Machiavelli for kids".. seems gone as of now, so in archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20160304023516/https://www.claudiahart.com/portfolio/machiavelli.html https://web.archive.org/web/20160304023516/https://www.claud...
- snickerbockers 2y ago
  "The Prince" is the important one, IIRC he wrote some plays and such too but Prince is where his name got associated with cutthroat politics. It's a pretty boring read but it's not difficult to understand, I read it when I was 14 and I didn't have any significant difficulties even though I lacked context in contemporary Italian politics. Even though I was bored out of my mind (i did not read this book by choice) its been a major influence on my life because it explains all the different ways your choices can have surprising results in the long run if they're planned well by you (or your adversary). It's a book he wrote about how to maintain power in a feudal society, with references to many historical events to back up his arguments. Usually it comes down to being wary of accepting help from somebody else unless you understand their motivations, what they stand to gain, and what you stand to lose in the long run. It's sort of like "Art of War" in that it's written for a specific time and place but the principles behind it are so universal they can be applied to many different situations, even business management and interpersonal relationships. So anyways, my point in the OP above was that this is the sort of situation that he wrote extensively about; obviously there weren't any computers or cloud storage in 15th-century Italy, but he definitely makes several points on the dangers of relying too heavily on third parties for resources, because it gives them leverage with which to manipulate them.
  - croissants 2y ago
    > they can be applied to many different situations, even business management and interpersonal relationships Disclaimer: most people do not think "Machiavellian" is a flattering descriptor
    - snickerbockers 2y ago
      No, but most people think being informed is. It's about power dynamics, understanding how that works doesn't mean you have to act like an asshole and manipulate your friends. And it's something I wish more people would understand, all the legal and ethical rules in the world don't mean shit so long as God either doesn't exist or does exist but doesn't care.
TechDebtDevin 2y ago
The world would be better off if people, like yourself (no offense) would read Machiavelli as a satire.
- snickerbockers 2y ago
  Well at the very least you need to take the stuff about power dynamics to heart, because that's the part that's most relevant and the part that modern Europeans have the worst understanding of. I find Europeans to be particularly annoying because they've willingly turned themselves into de-facto vassal-states without even realizing it, and despite constantly panicking over the outcomes of internal American politics they never learn their lesson or take any real steps to become less dependent on the United States. I'm pretty sure I remember the exact same conversations about whether it's safe to host data in America eight years ago, because they haven't changed at all. I happen to think they're over-reacting and that Trump isn't going to do anything with their precious data, but they're well within their rights to have negative opinions about internal american politics. However it's also incumbent upon them to understand that they have no standing in who the American people elect, and that if they don't feel safe not being America's #1 priority they need to become more self-reliant. Europe is not the center of the world to us, they're just another one of the six continents that aren't North America.

ideashower 2y ago

I haven't read Machiavelli, where would you recommend I begin for this in particular?

Pooge 2y ago
The Prince[1]. Although I think it's not very "readable" for today's standards. I've had a much easier time reading political science books that were written more recently. [1]: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/57037 https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/57037
- cutemonster 2y ago
  I'd be interested if you have any recent book suggestions
  - snickerbockers 2y ago
    yeah, uh, well he's been on a bit of a sabbatical for the last five centuries so there aren't any recent ones. Not sure when he's planning to come out of retirement.
    - cutemonster 2y ago
      Check the sibling comment for tips (maybe he has reincarnated)
  - Pooge 2y ago
    I enjoyed The Dictator's Handbook[1] and Why Nations Fail[2] quite a lot. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dictator%27s_Handbook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dictator%27s_Handbook [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Nations_Fail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Nations_Fail
    - cutemonster 2y ago
      Thanks! I've read half of one of them (I like it) will check out the other too
svilen_dobrev 2y ago
check this "Machiavelli for kids".. seems gone as of now, so in archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20160304023516/https://www.claudiahart.com/portfolio/machiavelli.html https://web.archive.org/web/20160304023516/https://www.claud...
snickerbockers 2y ago
"The Prince" is the important one, IIRC he wrote some plays and such too but Prince is where his name got associated with cutthroat politics. It's a pretty boring read but it's not difficult to understand, I read it when I was 14 and I didn't have any significant difficulties even though I lacked context in contemporary Italian politics. Even though I was bored out of my mind (i did not read this book by choice) its been a major influence on my life because it explains all the different ways your choices can have surprising results in the long run if they're planned well by you (or your adversary). It's a book he wrote about how to maintain power in a feudal society, with references to many historical events to back up his arguments. Usually it comes down to being wary of accepting help from somebody else unless you understand their motivations, what they stand to gain, and what you stand to lose in the long run. It's sort of like "Art of War" in that it's written for a specific time and place but the principles behind it are so universal they can be applied to many different situations, even business management and interpersonal relationships. So anyways, my point in the OP above was that this is the sort of situation that he wrote extensively about; obviously there weren't any computers or cloud storage in 15th-century Italy, but he definitely makes several points on the dangers of relying too heavily on third parties for resources, because it gives them leverage with which to manipulate them.
- croissants 2y ago
  > they can be applied to many different situations, even business management and interpersonal relationships Disclaimer: most people do not think "Machiavellian" is a flattering descriptor
  - snickerbockers 2y ago
    No, but most people think being informed is. It's about power dynamics, understanding how that works doesn't mean you have to act like an asshole and manipulate your friends. And it's something I wish more people would understand, all the legal and ethical rules in the world don't mean shit so long as God either doesn't exist or does exist but doesn't care.

TechDebtDevin 2y ago

The world would be better off if people, like yourself (no offense) would read Machiavelli as a satire.

snickerbockers 2y ago
Well at the very least you need to take the stuff about power dynamics to heart, because that's the part that's most relevant and the part that modern Europeans have the worst understanding of. I find Europeans to be particularly annoying because they've willingly turned themselves into de-facto vassal-states without even realizing it, and despite constantly panicking over the outcomes of internal American politics they never learn their lesson or take any real steps to become less dependent on the United States. I'm pretty sure I remember the exact same conversations about whether it's safe to host data in America eight years ago, because they haven't changed at all. I happen to think they're over-reacting and that Trump isn't going to do anything with their precious data, but they're well within their rights to have negative opinions about internal american politics. However it's also incumbent upon them to understand that they have no standing in who the American people elect, and that if they don't feel safe not being America's #1 priority they need to become more self-reliant. Europe is not the center of the world to us, they're just another one of the six continents that aren't North America.